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Diabetes as an Autoimmune Disease?

8K views 38 replies 15 participants last post by  Shanny 
#1 ·
I had read some information lately that doctors and scientists thought that diabetes should be reclassified as an autoimmune disease. I don't know a lot about autoimmune diseases yet, but how would this work? I'm trying to make sense of it.

Diabetes Type 2 means that the pancreas beta cells are damaged, right? Well, if diabetes is an autoimmune disorder, wouldn't that mean that the body's immune cells are destroying the pancreas cells because they (the immune cells) think that they (the pancreas cells) are foreign invaders?

And why would they think that? Is there something attaching itself to the pancreatic cells that they don't like? If so, what is it?

What causes autoimmune diseases anyway? Everything I've researched about it just says basically "no one knows what causes autoimmune disorders; it's a big mystery."

Well I think that is hogwash. Maybe you guys know something more about this.
 
#2 ·
Type 1 diabetes is definitely an autoimmune disease, and if doctors would do the proper testing to diagnose it, that would be clear to patients and the general public alike, because there will be antibodies in the blood. The presence of these antibodies shows that the body has designated the beta cells as somehow 'foreign' and is producing antibodies which attack them. Testing for GAD antibodies is the specific test required to diagnose type 1. Doctors who judge by weight or age or anything else are quacks, in my opinion, because there IS a test that can be done and all they have to do is order it.

Type 2 may well have autoimmune associations too. What you might do is Google what is autoimmune disease? There are a lot of them, and millions of people are afflicted. These are things that are being researched, but thus far they haven't been able to find all the pieces of the puzzle or puzzles.
 
#5 ·
Type 1 diabetes is definitely an autoimmune disease, and if doctors would do the proper testing to diagnose it, that would be clear to patients and the general public alike, because there will be antibodies in the blood. The presence of these antibodies shows that the body has designated the beta cells as somehow 'foreign' and is producing antibodies which attack them. Testing for GAD antibodies is the specific test required to diagnose type 1. Doctors who judge by weight or age or anything else are quacks, in my opinion, because there IS a test that can be done and all they have to do is order it.
Why does the body designate the beta cells as foreign? Is there something that has happened to the beta cells to change them and make them look like a foreign invader? Is there an environmental trigger for this?

Type 2 may well have autoimmune associations too. What you might do is Google what is autoimmune disease? There are a lot of them, and millions of people are afflicted. These are things that are being researched, but thus far they haven't been able to find all the pieces of the puzzle or puzzles.
Oh I definitely will be googling more. I'm not even halfway satisfied yet. My googling and pubmed searching was getting interrupted a lot today, but I shall continue tomorrow!
 
#3 ·
I am told I have it. They all say it is not diabetes related. To that I say someone is wrong. I have googled it & read about it till the cows came home. Did I learn anything. NO.
No on e knows how or why ,no cure. You have it & that is it.
so I just make the best of it & get on with my day :party:
 
#7 ·
I think they're finally groping a step closer but without getting to the "bottom" of it.

Diabetes (all of it) is a disorder of oxidative stress whose origin is glucose metabolism. I suggest you read the entire sticky thread on methylglyoxal. Various cells in the body lose the ability that normal people have to "clean up" after glucose metabolism. This is clearly reflected in the fact that when a population moves to a pattern of much larger quantities of glucose from diet and more frequently, diabetes rates skyrocket. There are likely other factors which cause the breakdown of this clean up process yet to be discovered.

When glucose is consumed for energy in the cells, various toxic substances are produced. Healthy cells have a built-in series of enzymatic processes which either remove these substances or convert them into something harmless. The most important of these toxins is methylglyoxal (intra-cellular MG, not so much the one in circulation).

In diabetics, this process starts failing to one degree or another in different locations. These built-up toxins have been measured at 15 TIMES normal in T2s and 25 times normal in T1s. Every single issue of the genesis, progression and complications of diabetes are directly connected to these toxins and their effects. For beta cells it means dysfunction and/or "death". For muscles it means insulin resistance (defense mechanism against further onslaught of glucose. For retinae it means retinopathy. For nerves it means neuropathy. For kidneys it means nephropathy. Etc.

So, I think the answer to your question:

Why does the body designate the beta cells as foreign? Is there something that has happened to the beta cells to change them and make them look like a foreign invader? Is there an environmental trigger for this?
...Is that it is the TOXICITY (or dysfunction or death) of the beta cells which signals to the body that they need to be purged. Autoimmune, yes, but that is a SECOND stage. What we need to be looking at with regard to AI is WHY, not WHAT.
 
#8 ·
Diabetes (all of it) is a disorder of oxidative stress whose origin is glucose metabolism. I suggest you read the entire sticky thread on methylglyoxal. Various cells in the body lose the ability that normal people have to "clean up" after glucose metabolism.

So, I think the answer to your question:

...Is that it is the TOXICITY (or dysfunction or death) of the beta cells which signals to the body that they need to be purged. Autoimmune, yes, but that is a SECOND stage. What we need to be looking at with regard to AI is WHY, not WHAT.
This would imply that T1 & T2 are the same disease, just two different ends of the spectrum. What we see is that most times T1 strikes in early childhood (sometimes a few months old babies) when the issue of oxidative stress & toxicity is not just there.
 
#10 ·
T1 Question: Why does the immune system go after beta cells?

I've been reading up about Type 1 diabetes, thinking that some of the factors from Type 1 might be common to Type 2. My main questions about Type 1 are:

Why does the body's immune system target the beta cells of the pancreas? What is causing that to happen? Is the immune system confused, thinking that the beta cells are foreign invaders?

But another question I have is, why hasn't the medical community figured this out by now? Hasn't Type 1 been around forever? The medical community has had sufficient time to figure this one out. It shouldn't be that big of a mystery.
 
#16 ·
I'm just trying to get a deeper understanding of it all. The more I dig and learn, sometimes the more confused I feel about it all. It seems to me that it shouldn't be so complicated and that the medical community is for some reason even more confused about it.

So far what I've been able to conclude is that a lot of modern diseases seem to have a common factor. Perhaps that common factor is an error or many errors that accumulate during the metabolism of carbohydrates and sugars. Some people seem to process carbs much better than others.

I am determined to get to the root of this though...I want to know the cause of all forms of diabetes and also the cause of Celiac (my sister has Celiac and my mom is T2).

I tend to think that my sister got Celiac and my mom got diabetes for similar reasons rooted in genetics (difficulty metabolizing sugars and carbs) and triggered by environment (we ate high sugar and high carb growing up). This is just a theory and of course I have no solid proof of this. But the proof shouldn't be that hard to come up with for the medical community...

Perhaps the answer is out there and they are keeping it hidden...
 
#15 ·
It is a popular hypothesis in the paleo world, that some autoimmune diseases are made worse (maybe even caused by?) intestinal permeability or "leaky gut".

The concept is that when your intestines let foods into your blood stream that normally should never get in, your immune system reacts and creates antibodies. Antibodies are not 100% accurate at identifying just one thing and can often react to something other than the original offender. The theory is that sometimes these food antibodies react to your own body's tissues.

Some studies have shown that people with autoimmune diseases (such as celiac, type 1 diabetes, hashimotos, etc) are much more likely to have "leaky gut". Anecdotally, many people have shared their success in reducing their medications and improving their symptoms by carefully eliminating foods that increase intestinal permeability (aka healing your gut).

It certainly is an interesting idea and even if it doesn't turn out to be right, I do lean towards following a diet that reduces gut irritation and overall inflammation. At least doing so has helped me reduce my symptoms quite a bit...
 
#17 ·
I have several autoimmune diseases.
Asthma and lots of allergies from childhood and then in 2007 I got psoriasis.
2008 gave my hypothyrose, the autoimmune type called Hashimoto + I startes to lose my eyesight and the doctors thinks it is a new type of autoimmune disease.
2009 gave me diabetes type 1, and another thyroid disease, Graves, wich is also autoimmune and I also got a goiter with knot.
They also found my D-vitamin levels to be way too low, and low D-vitamine is one of the factor that makes us in larger risk for developing autoimmune diseases.
2010 gave me another type of psoriasis, polyneuropathi,Raynauds Syndrome and tendinose achilles
2011 gave me epilepsy and they still arent sure if it is the autoimmune type, and I also got Sjogrens syndrome, another autoimmune disease.
They are still not sure if it is Lupis or Porphyri I have or if I have both, and maybe something more.
The doctors just call it serious diease development:mad:

Except from allergy, astma and psoriasis none of those diseases is known in my family.
I was healthy with four grown kids, a loving husband, jobs (I had 3 of them) I loved and I was the type you would meet running with our 4 dogs in the mountain as soon as I had a moment. I loved life and life loved me.
I made all food from scratch, and even if I didnt live LCHF I didnt eat more than 200 carbs a day.

During those last year I have read several articles and books and I have googled to learn as much as possible, but as I understand it, no one knows why our bodies starts to attack our own cells. And no one can tell me why I was the one that should start to collect diseases like that.
 
#20 ·
I was just reading this article on gut health and it talks about a link to autoimmune diseases.

Beyond Paleo: Heal Your Gut
I have begun following his blog, as he makes a lot of good points and backs them up with published scientific literature. Sometimes I think his conclusions are not completely supported by the literature he links to though. But we'll see.

Oh by the way, I recently asked a doctor, "Why does the immune system attack the beta cells in T1 diabetes?" And he said he thought that it was something the beta cells are doing to make themselves look like a foreign invader in the body and that is why the immune system mistakenly thinks that the beta cells need to be killed off.

This reinforces the material I have been reading on the topic in the past 2 days.

And the question of, "Why are the beta cells making themselves look like a foreign invader" can be answered by genetics. Ultimate T1 diabetes is caused be genes.
 
#21 ·
And how does that explain the patient who has no family history? Are they genetically predisposed, but somehow all of them have managed to dodge their genetic bullet until this last newly diagnosed type 1? I think making such flat sweeping statements is irresponsible. Diabetes is far too complicated a disorder/disorders to reduce to one sentence, and I certainly will not be falling back on the premise that scientists/researchers are just too damn dumb to have figured it out yet.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I'm coming to believe that everyone is "genetically susceptible" to something, it just takes an environmental trigger or many triggers, so set it all in motion. The ones who "dodged" it were never exposed to the same combinations of environmental triggers that people who got T1 diabetes were exposed to. Environmental factors (pollution, toxins, diet) are always changing, so someone who lived 50 years ago may have never been exposed to the same set of "triggers" that people are exposed to today.

The doctor I spoke with said that genes can be switched on or off by many factors--factors that include environment. So perhaps it also could be that the genetic susceptibility in someone's family line was never triggered or switched on because they were never exposed to the same set of environmental factors as the person who has T1 today.

That is my current understanding of the topic and I feel satisfied on that, but as we all know, scientific knowledge is always expanding and one's opinions and beliefs should always be open to this new knowledge.

I'm not saying "this is definitely how T1 comes to be, and if you disagree you're just wrong." I'd never say that. It's just what I happen to believe at this moment in time.
 
#23 ·
If it was in the genes, it is quite strange that there is nobody in my falmily with neither type 1 or type 2. And my family is large and no-one even the oldest members, have heard that anyone has had diabetes. We is also a family where people lives to a really high age.
What comes to the environment; I live in one of the best area with dry and clean air, one of the best drinking waters in Norway and I lived a healthy life. All my food were homemade, I run in the mountains regulary with our four dogs and I had 3 physical jobs and a loving family. In fact I was so healthy the doctors didnt think I could have became a diabetic when I got ill for a bit more than 2 years ago.
What in my environment should trigger me to be the first in my familys history with diabetes type 1?
 
#24 ·
According to the studies and sources I've been reading today, certain environmental factors found in dietary sources, bacteria and viruses can mimic certain "self proteins" in the body, thus "training" the immune system in such a way that it gets confused and thinks that the body's own proteins are the virus, bacteria or dietary source.

This is called "molecular mimicry."

The following environmental sources have been hypothesized to trigger the immune system of some genetically predisposed people to attack beta cells according to this study "T-cell epitopes in type 1 diabetes autoantigen tyrosine phosphatase IA-2: potential for mimicry with rotavirus and other environmental agents."

  • rotavirus
  • gliadin
  • dengue
  • cytomegalovirus
  • measles
  • hepatitis C
  • canine distemper viruses
  • the bacterium Haemophilus influenzae
  • herpes
  • rhino-, hanta- and flaviviruses
  • milk, wheat, and bean proteins
http://www.direct-ms.org/molecularmimicry.html said:
Sometimes a three way mimicry occurs with a protein fragment from a food closely resembling that of an infectious agent which in turn closely resembles part of a self protein. In Celiac disease part of the gliadin molecule (found in various grains such as wheat and rye), part of adenovirus 12 and part of a gut protein all closely resemble each other and the result of such mimicry is an immune attack on the gut when food containing gliadin protein is eaten. A similar three way mimicry occurs between a cell wall protein in grains and legumes, part of the Epstein Barr virus and part of the collagen in joints. This leads to rheumatoid arthritis in genetically susceptible people. For type 1 diabetes parts of milk proteins and viral proteins mimic proteins in the insulin-producing beta cells of the pancreas.

For MS it has been established that numerous viruses and bacteria have amino acid strings which mimic parts of proteins in the myelin proteins of the central nervous system. Undoubtedly food proteins also contain such mimicking protein fragments and thus two and three way mimicry is a ready explanation for why the immune system attacks myelin and causes MS.
 
#25 ·
But again, I didnt have any of those diseases, and even if I used milk, wheat and bean in my food, so did the rest of my family.
If it is in the genes why didnt anyone else get diabetic?

I believe it will take many, many years before we discover why some of us has an immune system that suddenly starts to attack ourself. I believe most people can get an autoimmune disease, but luckily not everyone gets it.
 
#27 ·
I don't want to give anyone the idea that I'm trying to be an "upstart" and rustle feathers and cause trouble. I'm not saying I know what causes Type 1 or any diabetes. I'm asking, why doesn't the medical community know by now. And I keep digging until I find something that satisfies me--something that may hint at an answer.

I don't know what causes any diabetes, or why rates of all types of diabetes are skyrocketing now a-days. But I'm always looking for answers. I ask doctors. I look at published medical studies.

We need and deserve answers for why these things are happening. It sincerely bothers me that seemingly so little answers can be found.
 
#30 ·
We need and deserve answers for why these things are happening. It sincerely bothers me that seemingly so little answers can be found.
You are absolutely right, and we all feel the same way. But people need to recognize that a large part of the issue is that governments and other agencies purported to be acting on our behalf are instead allied with other institutions which are not dedicated to curing diabetes. Until patients stumble over a forum like this one and learn that many of the instructions they got from their doctors/dieticians/et.al., can be very destructive, they will continue to trust the ones who can't be trusted.

For 50 years people have lamented the spread of obesity and diabetes. Yet they continue to subscribe to the advice given by the ADA, CDA, & sister organizations in other countries - organizations which - at least here Stateside - cannot be trusted because of their ties to political & financial entities which have no interest in curing diabetes. Which indeed have vested interests in NOT curing diabetes, because it would endanger their cash cow.

If you read any of our other boards, you'll find us railing against this very thing all the time. About the ADA which is in bed with agribusiness, the food industry and the drug companies. The medical community which blindly follows the ADA and government bodies which insist fats are bad and carbs are good. Powerful political entities which stand to gain billions of dollars by keeping diabetics sick by feeding them the very foods which make them sick, and then selling them more and more drugs to keep them alive.

Unless you factor in the relentless and overpowering influences brought to bear in favor of NOT curing diabetes, you are not going to find satisfaction or answers. And screaming at us about it is not productive. We already know how little we matter in the large scheme of things - and we do everything we can to educate people about what actually works and who is disseminating the damaging information regarding care, management and yes - cure - of diabetes.

We have not resigned ourselves, but we have to acknowledge the truth of the matter - that a diabetes cure is not high on anyone's priorities because there's no money in it.
 
#28 ·
There is also the factor that while you may be the only Type 1 in your family, your family may show a susceptibility to autoimmune diseases in general.

I am the only Type 1 in my family (either side), but both sides are rife with autoimmune diseases - Graves, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Crohn's, etc. Also, Type 1s can be susceptible to other autoimmune diseases.
 
#31 ·
optimist said:
In my family I`m the first with autoimmune diseases as well.......
Your response got me thinking. Everything in life has to start somewhere. Maybe your the first genetic change within your family. Maybe 4 or 5 generations down the line the ailments your dealing with will be something more of your descendants deal with. Does that make sense? Somewhere along the line the first person somewhere in my lineage developed green eyes. I have green eyes. Maybe your the start of a genetic pre disposition. :)

Sent from my iPhone using Diabetes
 
#32 ·
That makes sense.
I cant really buy the theory that it always has to be in the genes.
But genes can sometimes develope and change a bit, and if that happen it would explain why I suddenly is the first in my family.
That will also mean that it is only those after me that will have "defected" genes, and not my brothers and sisters and their offspring?
 
#33 ·
optimist said:
That makes sense.
I cant really buy the theory that it always has to be in the genes.
But genes can sometimes develope and change a bit, and if that happen it would explain why I suddenly is the first in my family.
That will also mean that it is only those after me that will have "defected" genes, and not my brothers and sisters and their offspring?
It was just a thought that popped into my head. I am the lone Type 1 in my family as well. My mom was a Type 2. Her brother and sister are D free. Did that make me more susceptible to either type? My girls are fine so far. No grandbabies yet. Is my Type 1 part of their genes? Will something turn on in their genes or their childrens genes? We may never know. :)

Sent from my iPhone using Diabetes
 
#35 ·
Then we're going to have to effect that change by changing one mind at a time. So pass the word - post everywhere you go - get enough people educated and there'll be strength in numbers. It won't come easily and it won't come quickly. Use your energy & enthusiasm to tell people what really works and what doesn't work. Rain on the ADA parade - expose their conflicts of interest and the dangerous guidelines they espouse.

Of course people should come before profit, but it's been a good many years since that was actually practiced in the rare air of the industry board rooms.
 
#38 ·
Very interesting thread. In regards to the comment about "Why do they still not know why it happens", maybe it's because there is probably not a time where they can examine someone who is healthy, but they know is going to get it?

About two years before I was diagnosed with Type 1, I was sick, particularly sick in the gut. I went through a number of tests, including a colonoscopy, and it all found nothing. I was tested for coeliac diseas, irritable bowel syndrome, and even inflammatory bowel disease. They found none of these, but nonetheless, I felt like I was food poisoned every single day for around two years.

Then one day I woke up, and it all stopped. I didn't feel sick anymore, literally overnight. Everything was going well, until around a month ago, when I lost a lot of weight, couldn't quench my thirst, you know, standard Diabetes symptoms. I was tested and they diagnosed me with Type 1, particularly after tests revealed my immune system was crazy high.

I questioned the doctor to see if the Diabetes was responsible for me being sick the last couple of years. We had a look at the dozens of blood tests over the years, and they were all 100% normal. No elevated sugars, no indicators of a crazy immune system, nothing. Literally, in one or two months I became diabetic type 1.

I have never drank, never done drugs, and never have smoked. I never enjoyed sweet food in the slightest, and always preferred vegetables and fruit. I was known in my family for being the guy who ate the vegetable left-overs, and now I'm diabetic :(

I have other members in my family with diabetes, but they were ALL type 2 (I am not overweight, never been overweight, and always enjoyed sports and exercise).

I don't envy the person that would have to research a case like mine and try to figure out why it happened. Then you have to compare my story with others, and a lot of them have nothing in common with mine. Would be a tough job.

Look forward to being normal again one day !
 
#39 ·
I've been trying to catch up with you tonight, Tyler, but you're posting really fast. ;) So I'm going to welcome you here, and also invoke some of the information you've included in your posts to other threads. I don't use insulin, but this forum puts me in close touch with a lot of insulin-dependent diabetics and I've absorbed a lot of information in that regard.

It appears that you were able to lower your blood sugar levels incredibly quickly by dropping carbs from your meals at the same time you went on basal insulin. So you know from personal experience about the effects of carbs on your blood sugar.

Now you've been prescribed bolus insulin and you're looking forward to increasing your carb intake again - getting back to some of your old favorite foods. That may or may not be a good idea. Our insulin-dependent members can better explain the perils of using additional insulin to cover additional carbs. It's a lose-lose situation. The goal is not to 'be normal again', it is to control your diabetes so you can live a long and healthy life.

What I'm going to address is the serious digestive complaints you referred to in other posts - complaints that were never diagnosed, and that mysteriously disappeared before your diabetes diagnosis. I won't suggest what was the cause of your particular issues, but I am going to warn you that carbs, and specifically grains/whole grains, not only raise your blood sugar to stratospheric levels (you hit 29, I believe?), they can cause or exacerbate the symptoms of IBS, celiac disease, esophageal reflux and many other discomforts/pain associated with digestion - belching, bloating, flatulence, constipation . . . at infinitum.

If I were you, I would be very VERY careful about reintroducing carbs to your meals, especially in view of the fact that you've already proven what good control you can have without carbs. Insulin does not give you carte blanche to go back to your old ways of eating, and doing so will introduce other issues down the road - issues like hypos, weight gain & the like. Here is a link that will help you out a lot - Dr. Bernstein is very wise in the ways of managing type 1 diabetes, and while his methods may seem unduly strict to you right now, the basic concept is solid and it saved his life. Just take a look. Diabetes Solution
 
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