I have had very good results with LCHF for about 2 years now. Lowering my A1C from 8.3 to 5.4, but recently I have had a discussion with a vegan who says she has been treating type 2 with vegan low fat and that it has reversed her insulin resistance. I find this very interesting, because even though my blood sugar is very good, I'm still as insulin resistant as I have ever been. If I eat a high carb meal my blood sugar will be high for hours. Can it possibly be true that the fat we are eating is actually keeping us insulin resistant? I find this hard to believe, but unless she, and others, are lying about there results, it's make me wonder.
Everyone's diabetes is different. In some people, insulin resistance may be the issue. In others, it may be poor regulation of the insulin response. Or it may be some combination of that or other factors. If it works for her, great! If it works for you, that's good, too. I'd be interested to learn what she's eating as far as net carbohydrate levels from vegetable sources and what she's eating for protein since so many sources of protein are not vegan. Right now I'd say the answer to the question is d) not enough information at this time.
She claims she is eating mostly potatoes and rice with a mixture of other vegetables. Not sure where the protein is coming from, but it's diffently a very high carb diet. The theory is that the lack of fat actually reverses the insulin resistance. If this is true, which I doubt, it would be a game changer for diabetes treatment. What would you say to someone who tells you your treating our diabetes all wrong and should actually be eating the opposite diet?
I would say that diabetes is different in every one who has it and that I am eating in a way that helps me manage my blood glucose in a manner I can sustain. Then I move on.
There are studies both sides can deploy in supporting their points of view. In my experience most studies have some limitation or flaw that makes their results useful but not universal. Each study simply provides additional information we can use to better understand the role of nutrition for our bodies and on which we can build the next study.
Off the top of my head, if my diabetic body has trouble managing insulin in response to carbohydrate intake at any level, eating larger quantities of carbohydrates does not seem like a reasonable response. I'd have to see some really convincing research before I changed that thought.
There are all kinds of reported studies and blogs, and books in support for plant-based diet (even low-fat) for diabetics. What I haven't seen is people who adopt this WOE reporting their real experience (in a format such as this forum and other diabetes forums) such as BG levels 1hr and 2hr after eating, and their A1Cs over a period of time. I did run across a vegan blog that seemed realistic about just how much work it takes to do this but even they recommended a fair amount of fats.
Personally, I don't see how a plant-based WOE can be at all helpful for diabetics.
As far as fats causing insulin resistance, this seems to be a current theory (mostly promoted by oponents of Low Carb). But is there really any basis for this claim? I'm insulin resistant. But I didn't get into this state by eating fats. It happened because of high carbs and low-fat WOE. (Why in the world would I want to return to the very WOE that caused IR in the first place????) When I eat LCHF, I'm bypassing the insulin resistance by allowing my cells to metabolize and use fats. It doesn't "cure" IR, just makes it irrelevant. It seems to me to be an unrealistic expectation that any diet can reverse IR. And that any diabetic can return to eating carbs.
I have not seen anything that supports that eating fats can actually "keeping us insulin resistant"! But, as others have pointed out, we all are different in many ways.
Anyone going Vegan, that is not eating Protein is likely to end up in the hospital. If this is what your friend is doing.
I worked with a young guy who was real good athlete, in top shape. He decided to go Vegan. He ended up in the hospital in critical condition. He eventually got better, but went through a lot, while learning to eat protein going forward! So be very careful to do your homework if you try something like this...
Good question Steven. This was also in my head as I also see quite a nr of success stories on HCLF diets.
The replies from Steve and Vee-Jay are however top class, thank you, and help to convince me to not lose faith in my keto'ish diet.
Only thing that bugs me is my lack of energy on HFLC diet.. guess I just will have to do better with salt.. I don't know
Salt (table salt, that is) is just one of the minerals that many people increase when eating keto. Magnesium and potassium also are critical for proper electrolyte function.
Regular levels of carbohydrate intake helps the body retain water and, in turn, helps the body retain sodium, magnesium, and potassium. When carbohydrate intake is reduced by a large percentage, less fluid is retained and those minerals are flushed out of the body. So many people eating LCHF/keto bump up their intake of all three.
The keto group on reddit insists people take in grams of each mineral per day, which, tbh, I find excessive, especially since they don't tend to account for peoples' sensitivity to any of those minerals or interaction with other medical conditions or medications. That on-line forum is, imho, fairly knowledgeable and supportive, but on this I differ with them.
For example, people taking ACE-inhibitor blood pressure medications are advised against taking in very high levels of potassium. Now, I'm certain that that recommendation was built on the assumption of the person eating "normal" amounts of carbs (that ol' USDA "balanced diet"). As people eating differently, though, it's up to us to either discuss with our health-care professionals and/or do our own research to determine increased levels of all three minerals which might be helpful for our own bodies.
Another thought. When one is doing low carb, but not low enough with enough fat intake to maintain ketosis, one can go in and out of ketosis. This can prevent one from reaching a fully ketoadaptive state (which can take a few or more weeks). So one isn't getting enough energy foods - too low carbs to get much from them, but not yet efficient at using fats for energy. I'm afraid I fall into this category most of the time with the resultant persistent fatigue. (I really must get off the fence!!!).
Is your goal good nutrition and optimal health or to be able to eat a high-carb meal? That answers your question. Properly done keto appears to reverse insulin resistance over time (see Virta's results for 2 years), but even if it didn't and way before that, it renders it IRRELEVANT and of no consequences to health or well-being - unless of course one is still fixated on the "high-carb meal". For most, even well-formulated LC/HF short of keto can also accomplish that.
I do Keto but I battle to get my head around taking even more fat (impact on galbladder, liver, other...?).
Then, I also battle with the principle
of having to drink electrolytes to maintain water and to not fall flat some days.
Is this normal? My wife, is highly aggetated with me for cutting carbs so abnormally low. She just doesn't buy it and I also doubt this at times.
So yes, guess this is part of my problem, I am not a die hard Keto man, though I buy into it largely. (But my carbs is still mostly less than say 40g a day).
I can tell you that one of the liver's function is to make bile which is essential for fat digestion. It's stored in the gallbladder and used as needed. When one doesn't eat much fat, the bile just sits in the gallbladder unused and after a time it can begin to produce crystals - i.e., stones. Of course, not everyone develops stones from a low-fat diet, but I certainly did. Now I don't have a gallbladder to give me enough bile to digest all the fats in a LCHF way of eating. I have to take bile supplements every time I eat a meal, but it works for me.
The idea that eating fats can cause fatty liver has been disproved. It is eating high carbs, of which the excess glucose in the blood is being converted to fat that is the culprit. There have been several members here who's fatty liver cleared up when they went LCHF (probably not as far as keto, though).
I know the idea of eating fat is counter-intuitive to most of us who grew up being taught that fats are bad. Everything we know about nutrition revolves around this theory. To now be told that fats are good takes some adjustments. And it takes some time to develop a taste for fats.
Vee Jay thanks, yes I did see this and I can accept it as making sense.
I'm just still afraid too much daily fats may exhaust the said organs, tiring them out, (almost just like I presumably did with my pancreas beta cells from oberload of carbs,sugar for so many decades..).
Anything - the more you pound it, the more you exhaust it...in my view.
Eggs, avo, mac nutbutter are my life and I will continue with it, but I am very hesitant to also add lard, cream, oils. Sounds like just too much, right?
There is certainly no need to force extremes if you're not comfortable with it. If you are able to maintain good BG levels with what you're doing, then that's good.
And there is no need to “load up” on fats just to make up your day’s calories. If you’re not hungry after eating your carbohydrate and protein allowances, eat fats. They’re there largely to satiate you. That doesn’t mean you have to take in every last gram.
They also don’t have to be fats that make you feel uncomfortable. For example, if you know you’ll want more to eat, maybe you’ll add an egg yolk to what you’re eating. Or more avocado. It does not have to be “traditional” fats like butter or sour cream or the fat someone else trims off their piece of meat.
But note I was referring to adding extra fats to be in deep ketosis in order to have enough energy as I am flat some days. As we all agreed you cannot be 'inbetween' meaning 30g carbs and too little fat...
This is where I am saying I am hesitant to add extra fat..
So at the moment I add electrolytes to not feeling flat.
Wonder if she follow the New Castle Study diet. 600-800 calories a day? In the study they drink One sachet of a liquid formula diet (~ 200 calories) three times per day and Three portions of non-starchy vegetables per day for 12 weeks. I guess it doesn't matter if it's low/high carb, as long as the calories are extremely low.
As far as weight loss is concerned, that certainly is true. For managing blood glucose levels, though, in individuals with demonstrated metabolic issues, low carb will allow better insulin management since there won't be large carbohydrate spikes to manage.
And then there's the matter of being able to stick with an 800-calorie diet. One of the reasons the keto diet is so popular at the moment, for more than people with diabetes-related metabolic issues, is that protein and fat satisfy the body so much better than carbohydrates (even the non-starchy ones). People on higher-fat diets don't feel hungry every couple of hours because their BG went low, which spares them the body's insulin response during snacking.
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