Day 1 of reduced protein experiment

Go Back   The Diabetes Forum Support Community For Diabetics Online > Diabetes Forum Start Here > Diabetes Forum Lounge

Diabetes Forum Lounge The Diabetes Forum lounge is the more social area of the community. Please feel free to drop in, and discuss anything thatís on your mind. Use this area for off topic discussions, making friends and being social.


Like Tree9Likes

Day 1 of reduced protein experiment


Closed Thread
 
Shared Thread Thread Tools
Old 11-02-2012, 01:41   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth Australia
Posts: 377

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 2008

580 likes received
156 likes given
Default Day 1 of reduced protein experiment

As I posted on another thread in Introductions, I am trying to reduce the stored glyc. in order to reduce liver dumps during stress or exercise.

Yesterday I cut my portions of protein down by 1/3 approx but increased fats and was not hungry. My FBG has been in the 5s for a while as a rule but this morning it was 4.6 which is a very small drop I guess but against the trend and hitting my target for FBS

For breakfast I had left over vegies mixed with beaten egg and a little cheese fried in coconut oil. Just wondering, as I post this, if I should have had egg and cheese. Will test before I got to the gym which will be 1.5 hours since breakfast and again when I return and see what happens.

Hillary is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 04:12   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth Australia
Posts: 377

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 2008

580 likes received
156 likes given
Default Back to the drawing board

1 hour after breakfast 7.9. Hm, Ok plainly too many vegies. Back from gym 3 hrs after breakfast 8.2. Target is not to go over 7.9.

Plan B, don't eat any carbs, even from "allowed" vegies in the morning.

Hillary is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 04:21   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 558

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2011

530 likes received
240 likes given
Default

It is referred to quite often on this board, that one can deplete their glycogen reserves as a form of control. While possible for short periods when exercising, it is not something that can be maintained because the liver will always make more of it as a basic function. It is this reserve that maintains your blood glucose to keep red blood cells from bursting (to say the least). It is a mistake to believe that you can walk around without any glycogen, this is where your bg's come from. Uncontrolled diabetics probably have less because they are constantly "dumping", but as a rule, when "dumping" (glycogenolysis) is in full swing, the liver is also making new glucose to fill it up again.

skb likes this.
Darbro is offline  
 
Old 11-02-2012, 04:39   #4
skb
Diabetic
 
skb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Mumbai, INDIA
Posts: 2,680

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2007

4080 likes received
2435 likes given
Default

I agree with Darbo. The body's priority with incoming glucose is to first fill up the glycogen reserves, before it starts taking it up for energy use.

__________________
A1c ~ 5.4
Follow LC/HF diet since Aug 2010
Control only with diet/exercise. No meds.

Blog - Metabolically Challenged
skb is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 05:12   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth Australia
Posts: 377

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 2008

580 likes received
156 likes given
Default

but what about when you are ketogenic and your body is burning fat for fuel?

Hillary is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 05:22   #6
skb
Diabetic
 
skb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Mumbai, INDIA
Posts: 2,680

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2007

4080 likes received
2435 likes given
Default

Even when you are using ketones for fuel, the liver still converts whatever available carbs, or proteins into glycogen.

Shanny likes this.
__________________
A1c ~ 5.4
Follow LC/HF diet since Aug 2010
Control only with diet/exercise. No meds.

Blog - Metabolically Challenged
skb is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 05:55   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth Australia
Posts: 377

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 2008

580 likes received
156 likes given
Default Yes but what I don't get

Quote:
Originally Posted by skb View Post
Even when you are using ketones for fuel, the liver still converts whatever available carbs, or proteins into glycogen.
is if you reduce the storeage potential by reducing protein and carbs, what then will it make the glycogen from? That is what I am trying to find out by cutting my protein a bit.

Hillary is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 07:29   #8
skb
Diabetic
 
skb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Mumbai, INDIA
Posts: 2,680

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2007

4080 likes received
2435 likes given
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillary View Post
is if you reduce the storeage potential by reducing protein and carbs, what then will it make the glycogen from? That is what I am trying to find out by cutting my protein a bit.
The glycogen stores within the body are about 400 gms. How much food or the carbs/protein therein would be required to create that much reserve, I have no idea. But I do know that when the fatty acids break up some of the free glycerols can be converted to glucose. It's not a very significant amount, but it can be done.

So i suppose the stores are always there, albeit reduced, or maybe when you go ketogenic, the body just hangs on to the glycogen and doesn't part with it very easily. I'm not sure, but I'll try to find out.

Hillary likes this.
__________________
A1c ~ 5.4
Follow LC/HF diet since Aug 2010
Control only with diet/exercise. No meds.

Blog - Metabolically Challenged

Last edited by skb; 11-02-2012 at 07:31.
skb is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 08:05   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,394

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2009

23930 likes received
32255 likes given
Default

I agree, Shyam . . . there's always some stored glycogen, but it's reduced. I think since I went ketogenic, my body still converts every little scrap - what few carbs I get from my high-fiber vegetables, and an occasional excess of protein. But because my fasting levels dropped by 30 points, my conclusion has been that the glycogen stockpile has shrunk, and what was fueling my dawn phenomenon has had the wind taken out of its sails!




Miss_Blue and Hillary like this.
Shanny is offline  
Old 11-02-2012, 12:24   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,076

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2009

4566 likes received
542 likes given
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skb View Post
The glycogen stores within the body are about 400 gms. How much food or the carbs/protein therein would be required to create that much reserve, I have no idea. But I do know that when the fatty acids break up some of the free glycerols can be converted to glucose. It's not a very significant amount, but it can be done.

So i suppose the stores are always there, albeit reduced, or maybe when you go ketogenic, the body just hangs on to the glycogen and doesn't part with it very easily. I'm not sure, but I'll try to find out.
This is not factual. While it may be true that liver glycogen never reaches technical ZERO, it CAN BE and IS "depleted" on a ketogenic diet. Highly depleted. Mostly "gone".

Liver glycogen stores in a typical glucophilic human along with the 16 parts water which must accompany it weighs between 3 and 10 pounds, in most people around 4 or 5 pounds. Virtually ALL of this can be lost and kept permanently down on a ketogenic diet. The 4 or 5 pounds can be observed disappearing literally in hours (a time frame where normal "weight loss" isn't possible) as ketosis begins. It can also be observed returning even more quickly if one makes a dietary mistake which throws them out of ketosis. The liver stokes itself right back up to its prior state quite quickly. Literally millions of people have observed this on things like Atkins Induction over the years.

Yes, the job of the liver glycogen is to supply emergency glucose but the issue is radically different between a glucocentric metabolism (known nowadays as "normal") where very close to all the body's cells use and require glucose, very close to 100% of the time. Contrast this to a body in full keto-adaptation where 95% of the body's cells (including most of the brain) don't use or need glucose and have adapted to other fuels. All of a sudden, this "emergency" function doesn't look very important! And it isn't - nor is it needed.

Not only is there no need for 5 pounds of "sugar-water" (glycogen mixed 16 to 1 with water stored in the liver) in this case, it isn't there and can't be there. Our bodies are smarter than to carry around 5 pounds of this mix when there is no need for it. Keto-adaptation cannot begin until it is depleted and comes to an abrupt end if glycogen returns. These are facts and have been measured in a clinical setting.

The only way to get into ketosis is to first deplete liver glycogen by carb and protein restriction (translation: high fat, since we're not talking about starvation here and the three add up to 100%) and the only way to stay there is to keep it depleted by the same means. As I said, I don't think "depleted" means precisely "zero", but definitely much closer to zero than what it was previously.

Glycogen can only come from glucose or amino acids. The twisted metabolic trail from fats to glucose probably has zero or less NET yield and it is obscure and of no significance. Glucose comes directly only from ingested carbs. Amino acids come from ingested protein and they in turn can be converted to glucose by the liver. Glucose from either source can then be converted to glycogen and stored.

If carbs and protein are restricted, 1) there is insufficient glucose available for conversion to glycogen - the body will not store it but will save it for critical functions like the brain especially prior to full adaptation which can take as long as a month when the brain still needs glucose, and 2) as adaptation progresses, there is very little need for glucose overall and so no need for the "emergency" store and so the body is smart enough not to do it.

VJH1471, Hillary and tempest like this.
__________________
Salim Morgan, T2
66 Years
DX: 9/2009 A1C=10.7
A1C 2/2010: 6.7 (DX + 4 months)
A1C 5/2010: 6.0 (DX + 8 months)
A1C 8/2010: 5.7 (DX + 11 months)
A1C 11/2010: 5.1 (DX + 14 months)
A1C 9/2011: 5.6 (DX + 2 years)
A1C 7/2012: 5.5 (DX + 2 years 10 months)
A1C 1/2019: 5.5
Diet: Approximately C:10;P:15;F:75 (as % calories)
Exercise: Not much. Stairs at home & work.
NO MEDS, No Highs, No Lows
Grandkids: 22
smorgan is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pillsbury reduced sugar cake and icing? jpkeokee Diabetes Forum Lounge 9 03-27-2012 18:34
Reduced Insulin by 40% - soon 50% Basicrips Diabetes Symptoms 7 03-24-2012 16:22
A New Experiment Gizmo Diabetes Forum Lounge 2 08-16-2011 02:07
Nine Days w/o Metformin Reduced my Creatinine Levels righteousdude2 Diabetes 0 04-30-2011 23:29
lantus and reduced urine flow in a.m.? Elsinore Diabetes 0 11-18-2009 01:11

LEGAL NOTICE
By using this Website, you agree to abide by our Terms and Conditions (the "Terms"). This notice does not replace our Terms, which you must read in full as they contain important information. You must not post any defamatory, unlawful or undesirable content, or any content copied from a third party, on the Website. You must not copy material from the Website except in accordance with the Terms. This Website gives users an opportunity to share information only and is not intended to contain any advice which you should rely upon. It does not replace the need to take professional or other advice. We have no liability to you or any other person in respect of any content on this Website.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 19:03.




Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.