Tight Control T2 not effective - Page 2

Go Back   The Diabetes Forum Support Community For Diabetics Online > Diabetes Forum Start Here > Diabetes Forum Lounge

Diabetes Forum Lounge The Diabetes Forum lounge is the more social area of the community. Please feel free to drop in, and discuss anything thatís on your mind. Use this area for off topic discussions, making friends and being social.


Like Tree24Likes

Tight Control T2 not effective - Page 2


Closed Thread
 
Shared Thread Thread Tools
Old 12-18-2011, 14:28   #11
Active Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,607


10903 likes received
1862 likes given
Default

What we have here is the usual drug company motivated (i.e. funded) observational study.
The rules are quite simple.
  1. Decide what you want the answer to be.
  2. Define the criteria for "success" - in this case a highly dubious and incomplete set of rules to define "control"
  3. Pick your population to support the result you insist on - i.e. folk who have already been pushed too far towards complications.
  4. Make sure that the subjects receive a good well balanced diet - i.e. high carbohydrate.
  5. Eliminate from the study those who for some reason can't deliver the "correct" result - e.g. folk who are careless enough to eat sensibly.
  6. Put an appropriate "spin" in the summary and ignore any conflicting data which the study is unfortunate enough to still generate.
  7. Make sure that the summary gets a good press and tuck the actual data away somewhere obscure just in case someone is unkind enough to want to look at it for themselves.
As jwags says, these results are based on the ACCORD study which is as he describes.

I saw another study discussing the benefits of full fat unpasteurised cheese. The data was clear - as was the benefit. So, what did the summary written by a representative of the Diabetes Association say: "Stick to low fat, pasteurised cheese" i.e. "let us destroy the beneficial elements first so we can continue to support the low fat rules".

Shanny and smorgan like this.
John.in.France is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 15:12   #12
Senior Member
 
aimster1mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kansas City Mo. USA
Posts: 261

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 2001

94 likes received
92 likes given
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimster1mo View Post
I can eat what I want, take a shot/orals and all's well is a misconception that even many Diabetics have and quite frankly makes me want to shake some people.
Just because the readings on the meter have come down to a good level after medicating them doesn't mean all those sugars are magically gone in your body. They are still there, lurking and doing damage and in my opinion just keeps collecting if you keep piling it in.
Here's my very own [email protected]@@ experiment results. (just to clarify, I'm calling myself a [email protected]@@ for doing it).
I ran out of Truvia for my morning coffee. I Have to have my coffee in the am and it Has to be sweet and light soooo I started using real sugar again which I haven't done for some time now cause I was curious as to how it would affect me. My meals have stayed the same. Over the past week and a half or so my numbers have started creeping up . So much so that I've had to take my fast acting daily some days even twice which I usually don't have to do. Things I usually eat that don't spike me much are spiking me now beyond normal levels. Although I have corrected with the fast acting my fasting numbers (fastings have been higher every day today almost 200) have also crept up which tells me that crap is still floating around in my body and it's building which in my mind has to be causing damage.
Experiment over, I'm off to the store for more Truvia.

Shanny likes this.

Last edited by aimster1mo; 12-18-2011 at 15:27.
aimster1mo is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 16:05   #13
Active Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,607


10903 likes received
1862 likes given
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimster1mo View Post
Here's my very own [email protected]@@ experiment results. (just to clarify, I'm calling myself a [email protected]@@ for doing it).
I ran out of Truvia for my morning coffee. I Have to have my coffee in the am and it Has to be sweet and light soooo I started using real sugar again which I haven't done for some time now cause I was curious as to how it would affect me. My meals have stayed the same. Over the past week and a half or so my numbers have started creeping up . So much so that I've had to take my fast acting daily some days even twice which I usually don't have to do. Things I usually eat that don't spike me much are spiking me now beyond normal levels. Although I have corrected with the fast acting my fasting numbers (fastings have been higher every day today almost 200) have also crept up which tells me that crap is still floating around in my body and it's building which in my mind has to be causing damage.
Experiment over, I'm off to the store for more Truvia.
Sorry - but I have to agree to differ with you on "Has to be sweet". To expand on what you said in your earlier post, every thing we swallow has to be processed.
Sugar is simple and the body can cope with it, albeit in our case, badly. Artificial sweeteners and additives of all types still have to be processed by the body. How? A good question and when you know the answer tell me please.
It's my understanding that a sweet taste (however created) triggers an insulin response which means that your pancreas gets a push every time.
Healthy pancreas? No problem.
Not so healthy? A small push towards beta cell burnout.
The other point is that if the body does generate some insulin and there is no extra blood glucose to process, we go slightly hypo and the body responds in the usual way by signalling "hunger". So we're tempted to have another nibble.
Message: Lose the sweet tooth and live with unsweetened coffee/tea.
This is just my personal view based on my own reading. Food for thought? (which won't case weight gain)

John.in.France is offline  
 
Old 12-18-2011, 16:35   #14
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PA USA
Posts: 67

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 1973

10 likes received
3 likes given
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by diabetes86 View Post
first you say the definition is usles then you go on to say yor supprised at complications.

So your surprised that people with BG routinely over 200 develop complications.
Clarification:
Some time ago I made the statement that tight control does not necessarily mean you will avoid complications.
A member asked me where I got that information. I could not find it at that time. I Now, found the study in which I read this information.
I posted it to clarify my statement from months ago.
Tight control or not, type 1 or 2, you may consider that you may be in for some complications in the future. Each person is different.
Thirty years type 1, I have every complications known, except, to the best of my knowledge, retinopathy. I have found a treatment that has helped me, tremendously . This treatment will soon become commercially available. Do not discount treatment for complications, you may need it someday, hopefully not.
Hope and faith are wonderful things, we all need them.
I tend to lean more toward the scientific side. I believe in looking forward. For me, that means tending to the complications I now suffer and finding the most effective treatment to negate them.
Many of you have just started this journey. Because you are seeking more information, you are on the right track, good for you.
I am in a different catagory, uncontrolled type 1 over thirty years.
My prognosis was 2 to 3 years. I am working on changing that. My kidneys are now functioning normally. I plan to live to colect Social Security, and to die of OLD age.
Be blessed

WV Mom likes this.
D4Hope is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 16:49   #15
Senior Member
 
aimster1mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kansas City Mo. USA
Posts: 261

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 2001

94 likes received
92 likes given
Default

""If these folks are scarfing multiple oral meds in large doses and/or shooting insulin and STILL having such bad numbers, just imagine how terribly they are eating. This means they are continuing to process large amounts of glucose, only somewhat suppressing the "spillover" in the blood with tons of medications.
So, the far more potent agent of glycation (and diabetic complications are all about glycation) is still running rampant or even increased under this ridiculous treatment regimen.""


This is what I'm referring to and agreeing with John.
Although the folks in this study were medicated how/what they eat does make a difference. You can inject insulin all day long but if you're eating habits are on the low end of desirable and still consuming loads of sugars and carbs damage is still being done to your body although the meter says OK.

aimster1mo is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 17:36   #16
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PA USA
Posts: 67

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 1973

10 likes received
3 likes given
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aimster1mo View Post
I can eat what I want, take a shot/orals and all's well is a misconception that even many Diabetics have and quite frankly makes me want to shake some people.
Just because the readings on the meter have come down to a good level after medicating them doesn't mean all those sugars are magically gone in your body. They are still there, lurking and doing damage and in my opinion just keeps collecting if you keep piling it in.
That is the beauty of the treatment I am attending. It causes the liver to metabolize, like a non-diabetic person. It activates the liver metobolism, to work like that of a non-diabetic.
People can red a zillion studies, what I know is my personal experience,and it has been working for me now for a year. My energy level is up. My neuropathy almost gone, depending on my activity level, at least I can sleep at night. My kidneys are back to normal function, GFR up and A1c down. I lost 20 pounds, without trying. A little over a year ago I was housebound and nearly bedridden, did not drive a car in 7 years. That has alll changed. I ride my bike dailly now.

It concerns me that you assume uncontrolled diabetes means poor diet, lack of discipline, not true. Some people are not textbook diabetics. Those are the people this clinical study can help, among others.

D4Hope is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 18:57   #17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,394

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2009

23929 likes received
32255 likes given
Default

D4? Tell us what kind of foods you eat. Does your diet include fruit and grains and all the ADA recommended foods? What parts of your 30-year routine have you changed since you were accepted for clinical trials?




Shanny is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 19:31   #18
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PA USA
Posts: 67

Member Type
Type 1
Diagnosed in 1973

10 likes received
3 likes given
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanny View Post
D4? Tell us what kind of foods you eat. Does your diet include fruit and grains and all the ADA recommended foods? What parts of your 30-year routine have you changed since you were accepted for clinical trials?
Hi Shanny,

I gave up red meat 8 years ago. I eat no bread, or pasta, have not for 4 years. Ieat more now of what I have been eating, fresh and raw. Nothing processed. Lots of fruit. I make a smoothie at least once a day, it consists of nuts, usually amonds or walnuts, kale and other greens, always some parsley, 2 tablespoons flax seed, and celery, then what ever fruit is the flavor of the day.

I have eaten 5 small meals a day since 2000. I try never to eat more that 30 carbs at a time.

I walk extensively and ride my bike. ( before this trial I was not able to walk much, due to neuropathic pain, and I certainly did not ride a bike back then.)
NO JUNK food what so ever. I drink ONLY water, plain.
I have coke and peanut butter crackers on hand for hypo events, only. (Doc recommended coke because the pulp in orange juice inhibits sugar absorption)

Just the fact that this trial has freed me from the pain (totally dropped pain meds, last May) so that now I can lead a normal life is wonderful. I have gotten my energy back. I am getting fit and trim. Everyone in the trial is loosing, or has lost weight.
I have also been able to totally drop two blood pressure medicines.
Latest bloodwork shows GFR up, creatine normal and A1c down. At the clinic they keep reminding me that it took thirty years to get where I am. I am impatient, I want it to change overnight, that is not the way it works.
My creatine has come down .2 and .3 at a time, but it is 1.3 and stable.
What else whould you like to know? Happy to share.
The type 2 patient they started with came in a wheel chair, now walks unassisted and says he has no pain in his feet and legs.

D4Hope is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 20:44   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 24,394

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2009

23929 likes received
32255 likes given
Default

Don't tell me what the trials have done for you, just tell me what you were eating before you gave up red meat, bread & pasta. Where now do you get any protein in your diet? Thirty grams of carb five times a day is a sizable amount of carbs.

You have been insisting that tight control is not effective against complications - that you had good (tight?) control and still got serious complications. I'm just trying to figure out how you were eating 26 years' worth of bread, pasta, etc., and you still eat lots of fruit . . . totaling about 150g of carb per day. Why have not your scientific leanings told you that further reducing carbs might be acceptable management for your brittle diabetes?




Shanny is offline  
Old 12-18-2011, 21:12   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: California, USA
Posts: 3,076

Member Type
Type 2
Diagnosed in 2009

4566 likes received
542 likes given
Default

A straight water extract of the stevia plant is NOT an "artificial" sweetener nor something new and alien to the human metabolism like sucrose with a chlorine molecule attached (Splenda), etc.

It has been found to have actual BENEFITS for diabetics in particular beta cell preservation and alleviation of insulin resistance. Putting this in the same category as actual "artificial" sweeteners cooked up in a chemistry lab (in many cases producing entirely new molecules which no prior exsitence in the environment or the human metabolism) is not correct and will only confuse the issue.

However, there may be 2 problems with Truvia and similar products:

1) Instead of using a simple water extract which produces "steviosides" (the ones for which benefits for diabetics have been found), the food processing giants somehow thought it advisable to extract and refine just a single chemical from the many found in the stevia plant. It is called "Reb A". No longer the natural food used by South American natives for 1500 years nor (I believe) the same product used by tens of millions of Japanese for 30 years without a single case of adverse health effects. It is an extract, so still not "artificial" but now really looks like a highly "procesed" and unnatural food. Much different than just dissolving some leaves in water like making green tea! (The way steviosides are made)

2) Most commercial "stevia" products contain a tiny amount of Reb A mixed with a much larger amount of a "filler" or artificial sweetener (from the chem lab) like erythritol, etc.

Some additional reading about Stevia:

Skullduggery?

Anti-Diabetic Action?

Helps Insuling Resistance?

Anti-Hyperglycemic?

Post-Prandials Better than not just sucrose (duh!) but also better than aspertame

My impression is that other tasting sweet, this substance is not even in the same universe as the chemical artifical sweeteners and lumping them together is not accurate or productive. It is a completley natural food, albeit non-nutritive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John.in.France View Post
Sorry - but I have to agree to differ with you on "Has to be sweet". To expand on what you said in your earlier post, every thing we swallow has to be processed.
Sugar is simple and the body can cope with it, albeit in our case, badly. Artificial sweeteners and additives of all types still have to be processed by the body. How? A good question and when you know the answer tell me please.
It's my understanding that a sweet taste (however created) triggers an insulin response which means that your pancreas gets a push every time.
Healthy pancreas? No problem.
Not so healthy? A small push towards beta cell burnout.
The other point is that if the body does generate some insulin and there is no extra blood glucose to process, we go slightly hypo and the body responds in the usual way by signalling "hunger". So we're tempted to have another nibble.
Message: Lose the sweet tooth and live with unsweetened coffee/tea.
This is just my personal view based on my own reading. Food for thought? (which won't case weight gain)

__________________
Salim Morgan, T2
66 Years
DX: 9/2009 A1C=10.7
A1C 2/2010: 6.7 (DX + 4 months)
A1C 5/2010: 6.0 (DX + 8 months)
A1C 8/2010: 5.7 (DX + 11 months)
A1C 11/2010: 5.1 (DX + 14 months)
A1C 9/2011: 5.6 (DX + 2 years)
A1C 7/2012: 5.5 (DX + 2 years 10 months)
A1C 1/2019: 5.5
Diet: Approximately C:10;P:15;F:75 (as % calories)
Exercise: Not much. Stairs at home & work.
NO MEDS, No Highs, No Lows
Grandkids: 22

Last edited by smorgan; 12-18-2011 at 21:16.
smorgan is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
complications, intensive therapy, studies, tight control, type 2

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can't get under control CrystalAnn Diabetes 17 10-14-2011 18:07
New effective Treatment D4Hope Diabetes News 0 10-08-2011 17:15
No Cure for Diabetic Type 2 - Only Tight Control ramesh Diabetes Treatment 9 02-06-2011 19:29
Self Control Mary Huskey Diabetes Forum Lounge 6 01-09-2011 03:46
Blood glucose monitoring in T2 DM - Is it cost-effective? Nagesh Rao Diabetes Forum Lounge 5 09-08-2010 18:10

LEGAL NOTICE
By using this Website, you agree to abide by our Terms and Conditions (the "Terms"). This notice does not replace our Terms, which you must read in full as they contain important information. You must not post any defamatory, unlawful or undesirable content, or any content copied from a third party, on the Website. You must not copy material from the Website except in accordance with the Terms. This Website gives users an opportunity to share information only and is not intended to contain any advice which you should rely upon. It does not replace the need to take professional or other advice. We have no liability to you or any other person in respect of any content on this Website.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 18:13.




Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.