Ketosis - Page 3

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Ketosis - Page 3


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Old 07-06-2015, 18:00   #21
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They admit it's a very small study ("Though the study sample size is small and duration is short,"), here's one particular statement that interests me:
Quote:
... if we find increased fasting blood sugar level beyond 250 during the study period, then we exclud that patient from the study.
Since their objective is to determine if vitamin C helps metformin lower blood sugar, and then a subject is excluded if his blood sugar exceeds a predetermined level, that tells me they're manipulating their results. But what do I know about running honest research?

And we know met works much better when used with a low-carb diet, but they apparently allowed their subjects to choose what to eat, and only try to avoid foods high in vitamin C. Why would they not try to give metformin a chance to work at its highest efficiency? I think this study has some flaws.

SKB? What is your opinion of this? Have you heard of any of the researchers?




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Old 07-06-2015, 18:50   #22
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That's not science, that's cherry picking data to support a (probably incorrect) hypothesis.

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Old 07-06-2015, 19:12   #23
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Less than 250mg FBG was selection criteria upfront used by investigator to screen candidates as well (among half a dozen other things, presumably to limit study to mild to moderate Type 2 diabetes only) as well as excluded during study. The second part is a unusual for sure and unclear whether that was done during preliminary experiment stage to get a proper starting baseline or later on in the study. At a minimum, they should disclose how many were excluded post-selection and in which group, not just how many left in each group.

I think asking to watch high vitamin C intake via food is important in this study as dietary Vitamin C is an important confounding variable, which is otherwise impossible to control. It would have been nice if the investigators did some correlation type analysis between changes in plasma AA levels and changes in diabetic biomarkers or better yet correlate with some long term oxidative stress marker as well.

All studies will have flaws and limitations - no doubt about that. I think this one is relatively well designed.

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Old 07-06-2015, 20:17   #24
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Here is another study showing significant improvement in FBG and A1C (among others) using 1000mg but not 500mg Vit C (control group). Also reduced LDL and triglycerides. Not as well designed study as likely many other confounding variables not controlled or tracked, but nevertheless, the lab result changes are pretty impressive.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...9044000000.pdf

My overall objective is not just to address and reduce the diabetic markers but also oxidative stress and inflammatory marker (C-reactive protein). I am thinking of testing lipid peroxidation marker F2-isoprostane and track that over time. Vitamin C is just one simple way to reduce oxidative stress. A keto diet may be very helpful to mediate this as well.

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Old 07-06-2015, 20:47   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution
Dietary vitamin C is important to good health. In doses above 500 mg/ day, however, vitamin C supplements can destroy the enzymes on blood sugar test strips and can also raise blood sugars . Finally, in levels higher than about 400 mg/ day, vitamin C becomes an oxidant rather than an antioxidant and can cause neuropathies. If you are already taking supplemental vitamin C, I urge you to taper it off or lower your dose to no more than 250 mg daily. Use only the timed-release form.
Bernstein, Richard K. (2011-11-01). Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution: The Complete Guide to Achieving Normal Blood Sugars (p. 69). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition.
The effect on blood glucose is easily tested for, but neuropathy is tougher to track. Someone else can go first.

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Old 07-07-2015, 04:23   #26
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While Vitamin C is a known pro-oxidant at higher dosage; however, at what exact dosage is debatable. My guess is that Dr. B is likely using in-vivo data and trying to extrapolate based on human studies. The pharmokinetics data in human shows that peak plasma concentration can be achieved with 400mg oral dose and it did not rise with incremental dosage, but this doesn't mean it is a pro-oxidant at higher dosage. Given short half life of vitamin-C (half hour in plasma), dosage of 400-500mg twice daily is likely better than single 1g dosage. This is consistent with studies that show glutathione levels (GSH) can be maxed out with 500mg Vitamin C and didn't increase further with 1g dosage in human.

Below study in Type 2 used 2 x 500 mg daily (randomized double blind crossover study) to show positive metabolic changes in elderly diabetic patients.

Metabolic benefits deriving from chronic vitamin C supplementation in aged non-insulin dependent diabetics. - PubMed - NCBI

To be even more conservative and given the short half life of Vit C, I would go with 4 x 250mg daily to attain peak values throughout the day.

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Old 07-07-2015, 04:48   #27
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Diagnosed on Friday - FBG of 200, A1c of 11.

Started low carb on Saturday but not strictly Atkins. 50g carbs a day or less which is much higher than Atkins induction stage.

Day 3 of low-carb diet and I seem to have hit the ketosis zone - trace amount shown in ketostix pre-meal. Today, FBG was less than 100 in the morning, around 100 pre-meal and it is still the same (100) two hours after meal. I have cut the metformin dosage in half which I will continue to use for at least a week as I keep monitoring sugar levels.

Don't feel hungry at all except in the morning.

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Old 07-07-2015, 07:48   #28
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I tapered my vitamin C to ZERO and seem to be better off for it. I will take short courses in the very rare event that I get any kind of upper respiratory infection. It seems to be good for that. That would be at most two 500s per day and then I need to "taper" back down at the end as stopping suddenly isn't good. I've probably done that 2 or 3 times in the last 4 years.

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Old 07-07-2015, 15:14   #29
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I am taking 2 grams a day of ascorbyl palmitate (800 mcg vit. C), it is supposed to be an oil soluble version of vitamin C and can be stored in the body, unlike the ascorbic acid water soluble version.

Don't remember the good or bad about it when I started, but good must have outweighed the bad or i wouldn't have done it.

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Old 07-07-2015, 15:25   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulkulkan View Post
Diagnosed on Friday - FBG of 200, A1c of 11.

Started low carb on Saturday but not strictly Atkins. 50g carbs a day or less which is much higher than Atkins induction stage.

Day 3 of low-carb diet and I seem to have hit the ketosis zone - trace amount shown in ketostix pre-meal. Today, FBG was less than 100 in the morning, around 100 pre-meal and it is still the same (100) two hours after meal. I have cut the metformin dosage in half which I will continue to use for at least a week as I keep monitoring sugar levels.

Don't feel hungry at all except in the morning.
Sounds like good progress....! On the metformin, I have been advised by many on here that because metformin takes around three weeks to work, it would be odd to cut back on it, before you really know its impact on you BS.....

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