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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,
I hope you can answer some questions, or point me in the right direction. I apologize; this is long.

Background: There's a long history of heart disease, diabetes, and Alzheimer's on both sides of my family. My father (a smoker) died at 47 of a heart attack, caused by atherosclerosis. Paternal grandmother, presume Type 2 (not sure, never met her) died at 50 of a heart attack. Maternal grandfather, Type 2 and Alzheimer's, died of a stroke. There are many others with the same diseases.

6 years ago, my older and only sister, now 55, non-smoker, was diagnosed with Type 2 with an a1c over 11.00. She struggled with her diet for a while, but discovered Dr. Bernstein's book and began eating to her meter religiously. She has incredibly tight control, with a1c's now in the 4.0-5.0. But in many ways it was too late for her. She is losing her sight, she has thyroid and adrenal insufficiencies, and just found out she has blockages in all of her arteries, from 80-100%, and a ventricular embolism, and had a silent heart attack about a year ago. She and her husband are both veterans, living retired in Northern Michigan. She's had a terrible time finding care that will take the retiree insurance. She believes she was undiagnosed for 20-30 years.

5+ years ago, I bought a meter and my readings qualified me for Type 2 as well. I bought the book, started eating to my meter and I found a wonderful DO. My a1c was 6.2 at diagnosis. I have elevated BP, thyroid and depression issues. I think I was undiagnosed for 5-7 years.

Between then and now, it's been a rollercoaster as far as diet goes. I fall off the LC wagon frequently. I've had to change doctors, and never found one who would do the in-depth lab tests, or understood the LC eating.

Since discovering this site a few years ago, I adopted the HFLC WoE, except when I fell off the wagon, and climbed back on. (Ice cream is my heroin).

I'm 53, quit smoking a month ago today(30 years smoking). I also quit my statin about the same time (I have read that statins can cause diabetes to develop--in my case the timing is suspect). I found a new practice recently, that follows functional medical practices, led by a DO. They "reverse" diabetes with diet and supplements, and the practice's goal is to get you off as many meds as possible. Had my comprehensive lab tests, and got all the news last week.

Because I quit the statin, and have been off the wagon, my Trig were 199, and LDL 209. My biggest concern at this point is that I have the genetic marker ApoE 4/4, which indicates a higher than average chance of developing atherosclerosis and Alzheimer's. It also may mean I do not process saturated fats properly (still searching for science), thereby raising my LDL, which I do not want to do given my family history.

HFLC is the only way I have found to control my BG readings. This new practice (I have a followup next week, hopefully questions will be answered) has been pretty non-committal on the HFLC WOE. They are pushing low fat at the moment. I am completing a detox right now that has had my BG all over the board. They were "not concerned" when I had BGs over 150 with a powdered drink mix. (I stopped taking it anyway).

How will I manage my BG, and still get my LDL and Trigs down, if I cannot do HFLC (on my own initiative, they will have to show me significant science to persuade me to change my WOE.) Will I be able to control BGs with non-animal fats? I've been up and down this week with the detox, not dropping below 96, but also not going as high since I stopped the drink. Only plant fats allowed.

I know the Trigs will drop with HFLC but will the LDL as well? I can't save my sister, but I want to save myself.

Thank you for reading this massive message!

Kelly
 

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Unfortunately there us no way to know if your LDL will come down. And if it doesn't, there is no way to know what that means for someone on lchf. The science is just not there yet.
 

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Hi Kelly . . . while LCHF may not lower the numbers of LDL, what it does is convert LDL particle size from Pattern B (dense and dangerous) to Pattern A (large, fluffy and innocuous).

As for the ApoE 4/4 . . . I need to study this one . . . some say that with this marker, the low-fat/statins game causes greater risk of Alzheimers, which would keep us in the LCHF camp. But don't quote me quite yet. I don't know much about it at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi Kelly . . . while LCHF may not lower the numbers of LDL, what it does is convert LDL particle size from Pattern B (dense and dangerous) to Pattern A (large, fluffy and innocuous).
Thanks, Shanny, and donnaB--seems I had read that somewhere. Any idea how long I should expect it to take to make the conversion? I know, strange question, but I want as much info for my appt next week as I can get. They may try to persuade me into a WOE that I don't like. I still don't know that much about this practice; wondering if I rebel against their WOE if I can still get treated for other issues.

I am looking more for anecdotal info on LDL and LCHF. Of course, if there is science available, I'd love to have that too. I just haven't seen much yet, though I'm still looking.
 

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You can find lots of info if you google APO E 4/4. Might even want to check out some sites of labs that run advanced blood lipid tests, ie Berkeley Heart Health Labs and Health Diagnostic Labs, because they also run some of the genotype tests and may have some explanations on their sites.
 

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The ApoE 4/4 alleles do indicate the body's inability to handle fats. Linda, a member of this forum (foxl) had the same issues and may be able to help you more. However, your elevated Trigs & LDL could have been solely due to the fact of your having stopped the statin. LCHF should bring the TGs down which is IMHO more important than the LDL numbers. I think that the total cholesterol & LDL will come down too. Though I must add that I seriously doubt that cholesterol levels on their own, have anything to do with CVD.

You may need to hang on for a while longer. With regards to the detox therapy my suggestion would be to follow it completely if you are going to do it. Half hearted attempts seldom pay dividends. And at the end of it, you will still have doubts whether it helped you or not.
 

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Read dr peter Attia blog where he has a cholesterol series. He's done 9 posts with a final 10th to come in the future.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the input and letting me know about Linda, skb. I have read several things regarding cholesterol and heart disease, and the probability that inflammation, causing the cholesterol to not function properly, is most likely to be the cause of heart disease, makes total sense to me.

The detox helped in the matter of getting back on an eating plan, and following it strictly. I have lost weight a well, probably retained water. Otherwise, unfortunately, I don't feel much better. But that's OK, it was worth a shot.

Kelly
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You can find lots of info if you google APO E 4/4. Might even want to check out some sites of labs that run advanced blood lipid tests, ie Berkeley Heart Health Labs and Health Diagnostic Labs, because they also run some of the genotype tests and may have some explanations on their sites.
mbuster, I have been :). I wanted to see if anyone on this huge site had first-hand experience dealing with this, or had their LDL drop on LCHF. My testing from this new practice was incredibly in-depth(20 pages), one of the reasons I went with them. I have not had proper testing, particularly of thyroid, since my first DO, 5 years ago.

Can I ask what you are taking l-arginine for, and what dosage (if it's not too personal)? I recently came across a few sites that discuss it's success in treating CVD, as well as diabetes. Still wading through all that, too, to decide if I want to take it.

Kelly
 

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There is a strong movement in medicine to rename Alzeimers as Diabetes type 3, this suggests that LCHF clean diet is the way to go.

4 is the most ancestral gene, 2 is the newest gene. There are claims that the 4/4 is much rarer now because our switch to a grain-based diet killed off most of the 4/4s. However, I have also read that the 4/4 genotype is actually even more ancient than paleo, and the diet would be more similar to other primates.

People are afraid of having 4/4 because that means a significantly higher risk of Alzheimer's at a younger age, and the associated implications with insurance coverage.

Having the 4 variant is associated with higher LDL, and especially the bad dense kind, however, this is because 4 variants have a harder time getting enough saturated fats in the brain, which is why the body needs to increase the LDL, however, this also increases plaque formation

I have heard people comment that if you have the 4/4 variation you should lower your saturated fat intake because it'll be bad for your LDL numbers, but that doesn't make sense to me for the following reasons:
a) Given the general paleo/primal framework, it would seem to me that having the ancestral allele would make it even more important to be eating a non-grain diet, which means more protein and fat in general
b) If your brain is already not getting enough saturated fat, wouldn't reducing saturated fats just make it worse?
 
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I'll just address some of the other questions you had, since you got such good info on cholesterol from others:

1. Other Fats: olive oil (cold or room temp), avocado oil (for cooking) and everyones favorite coconut oil (for everything, in everything and on everything).
2. One of the tests you should get is for particle size (love to see the Type-A soft-n-fluffy)... hive mind, there are 2 kinds of test, 1 is VAP(?) and the other...????
3. Make your OWN ice cream (or fat bombs) with HWC/CO/butter/sweetner of choice to help those cravings!

Over-eating carbs "frequently" when on LCHF is what will help take your cholesterol to the "bad place." Because then you are actually eating HF and HIGH CARB, which can be especially bad.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thank you all for your informative answers.

jademuffin, I did have the NMR LipoProtein test (thank you, Shanny), along with everything else. I don't remember details, and don't have the report with me, but seems like my small particles were high. But this test was soon after I stopped Crestor, and while I was off the wagon. So, more of a "worst case" lab report.

Thank you for the tips--I haven't made fat-bombs in a while. I need to do that! At least this detox I was on broke my current craving cycle. Now just to keep it broken.

Judy-in-France, the points you make are the way I'm leaning too, and thanks for such succinct points. If you happen to have links to go with your information, that would be great.

The last thing I want to do is give up LCHF, and I won't until I see hard evidence it's causing me damage. Not "known to cause", or "saturated fats are bad for you", but actual evidence.

I may be overreacting. After all, I don't really know for sure what the med. practice is going to want me to do. And it's my choice if I do it.

Kelly
 

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kbaird4939 said:
mbuster, I have been :). I wanted to see if anyone on this huge site had first-hand experience dealing with this, or had their LDL drop on LCHF. My testing from this new practice was incredibly in-depth(20 pages), one of the reasons I went with them. I have not had proper testing, particularly of thyroid, since my first DO, 5 years ago. Can I ask what you are taking l-arginine for, and what dosage (if it's not too personal)? I recently came across a few sites that discuss it's success in treating CVD, as well as diabetes. Still wading through all that, too, to decide if I want to take it. Kelly
Original intent was to explore its BP reducing effect. Can't say I've really seen it but maybe just haven't recognized it. Like you I've read it may be helpful in heart health, lowering LDL cholesterol. Also supposed to aid in cellular waste removal, helps maintain (if not build) muscular condition, maybe help in dysfunctional erectile issues, and some chance of aiding sleep (hear it can also give some insomnia). Try to take 2 825 mg caps before bed on days with bike rides when more exertion is used on the ride.

It is personal, so don't tell anybody else. LOL.

iPhone using DF app
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
You can find lots of info if you google APO E 4/4. Might even want to check out some sites of labs that run advanced blood lipid tests, ie Berkeley Heart Health Labs and Health Diagnostic Labs, because they also run some of the genotype tests and may have some explanations on their sites.
Mbuster--I completely missed it the first time I read this, but Health Diagnostic Labs is who did my testing :). I need to check their website.

Thanks for the "personal" info on l-arginine. I'll be sure to keep it to myself;).

Kelly
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You may need to hang on for a while longer. With regards to the detox therapy my suggestion would be to follow it completely if you are going to do it. Half hearted attempts seldom pay dividends. And at the end of it, you will still have doubts whether it helped you or not.
skb--I did stick to the detox--it ended yesterday! I faltered a tiny bit, 3 med diet cokes over 9 days, rather than 2 giant ones every day!

I have noticed little of what the said I would, like increased energy and better sleep. Follow-up is tomorrow; should be interesting.

Kelly
 

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Judy-in-France, the points you make are the way I'm leaning too, and thanks for such succinct points. If you happen to have links to go with your information, that would be great.
Kelly my links won't work for you as they are to papers on a site that you do not have access to, however I suggest simply looking for more information using GOOGLE. The following search data: Alzheimers and Ketogenic diet. This will lead you to many pages of links and science papers. Here's one with links to papers.
 
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