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Shanny said:
getting into ketosis and staying there knocked an additional 20-30 points off my fasting levels, which was very welcome, since dawn phenomenon has been an issue with me.
Same here! It's really amazing how much full on keto-adaption improves my BGs, especially dawn phenomenon. Can't say I fully understand the science but I think once you start using ketones primarily it lowers the need for the liver to produce glucose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
The "fries" have been a BIG misunderstanding here.
I have NOT had fries in ages and cant remember when last i did actually.

I had some that day because for 2 days I had been nauseated and queasy and not sure if from the low carb or the high fats or what. I was not able to eat anything because nothing sounded good and made me feel even more sick to my stomach.

I was extremely hungry though and feeling weak and needed to eat, the fries were the only thing that sounded good so out of desperation for some food in my tummy I ate a few fries. I did not have more carbs after them either, they did not make me want more carbs but oh boy I know what you mean!

So today is a new day and I am feeling better now. I believe that the metformin is is adding to all the queasy nausea even though i've been on it well over a couple months now. I did not take it yesterday morning and or last night and not yet today either and i'm feeling better so i dont know if it is the met or the low carb stuff with all them fats....ugggh I just wish this would go away!

It could well be that the fries are contributing to the hunger. I found out that carbs make me hungry. As I say a lot, carbs call for more carbs.
 

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Personally, I would recommend against trying dietary changes and Metformin at the same time. It kind of invalidates your results. You won't know what benefit came from diet and what came from Metformin.

That's the decision I made right after diagnosis. On the third day, I put the Metformin in the trash - along with the statin and some other junk my doctor had prescribed and proceeded learning about diet and making changes. Within 4 months it seemed clear that diet would indeed work by itself and not much longer after that I got to completely normal blood sugars where I've been ever since with no meds of any kind.

Metformin is one of the more benign pharmaceuticals, but that's practically an oxymoron. Even as one of the best, there are still significant side-effects reported:

Nausea and diarrhea
Impaired ability to absorb vitamin B12 resulting in deficiency
Potency issues in males

My view was that if I took Metformin WHILE making adjustments to diet, that just made no sense. If the Met WAS helping that would only mean that I would become complacent with a certain degree of change in diet concealing the knowledge from myself that with a little more rigor in diet I wouldn't need the Met at all. You can't really know that unless you test them separately.
 
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The thing with being in ketosis, is you really don't want to be jumping back and forth into and out of ketosis.
Why? What happens when you go in and out. I'm not attempting to be in ketosis, not testing, nor know if I'll be aware if I'm in it or not, unless I notice the odor on my breath. But given the trends in my dieting, I suspect that I might naturally get to there at some point, but if so would likely be going in and out unless I made a concerted effort to stay on one side or the other.
I read that somewhere and can't recall right now where. It may have been on Jimmy Moore's n=1 Nutritional Ketosis test. I am not having any luck finding the source right now, someone may come along that knows it. It just makes sense to me that once you get your body adapted to running on ketones instead of glucose, you don't want to confuse it by switching back and forth. It takes a while to get readapted to ketones once you've slipped out of ketosis and in that time you risk losing the bg control you gained. I personally don't want any more than the smallest amount of glucose circulating in my system doing heavens knows what!

Remember, it isn't necessary to be in ketosis for lc/hf to bring your #'s down and keep them steady.

I have been in deep ketosis well over a year.
So if your BG numbers are good even when not in ketosis, what's the advantage of being in it? Weight loss? Something else?
Yes one can have good control using lc/hf w/out being in ketosis, but as Shanny noted, being in ketosis lowers numbers even more. I have numbers in the normal range, an A1c at the low end of normal and am still losing weight slowly. Plus I have more energy than ever, Ketosis helps me do these things so I stay there.

I may have to slip out after my surgery as I will need to increase my protein for healing, but I am not totally decided yet.
 

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There many reasons for maintaining ketosis other than blood sugar control. If I knew before what I know now, I'd be maintaining ketosis even without diabetes.

Also, I'm not completely sure that ketosis will give you the lowest BG numbers possible. What it will give you is:

The lowest glucose THROUGHPUT possible, and
A constant supply of ketones, the only complete energy alternative to glucose

I can't afford to test enough to confirm this, but I'm fairly certain that when I completely maintain ketosis, many of my readings are actually 10 points HIGHER then I could do with less-than-ketosis low-carb. I also think that is utterly irrelevant and that it is the TOTAL glucose (throughput) which matters.

Another thing is that if you cycle in and out you will never get very far into "keto-adaptation" since every expedition out of ketosis sets you back to square one. Even the very first stage (ketone production) takes at least 3 days up to weeks for some people. The brain takes even longer to adapt to and begin using ketones. In about three weeks it can be most of the way over, but adaptation continues for at least three months or even longer. This whole process can be complete reset back to zero by a couple of bad meals.

My main reasons for choosing to stay in ketosis?

- Alzheimer's
- Parkinson's
- Dementia generally
- Ideal body weight/composition
- Mental alertness and energy
- Blood sugar

in more of less that order!
 

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My main reasons for choosing to stay in ketosis?

- Alzheimer's
- Parkinson's
- Dementia generally
- Ideal body weight/composition
- Mental alertness and energy
- Blood sugar

in more of less that order!
Thanks Salim for explaining it so much better than I could have. And those are my reasons to maintain ketosis also!!
 

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This discussion about going in and out of ketosis brings up a question for me. If you aren't in ketosis full-time, is it better to deliberately stay out of it? Most of the week I'm eating under 50 grams of carbs now, but when I go out to dinner I sometimes choose to eat up to maybe 100 or so (total for the day). The Ketostix are mostly a nice dusky pink : ) so I assume I'm in some level of ketosis part of the time. I understand that by choosing not to stay in ketosis I'm missing out on the full benefits of running on ketones instead of glucose, but am I doing extra damage to myself that would not be happening if I stayed completely out of ketosis? Hope that question makes sense.
 

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Just wanted to add that I did download a keto-calculator and the ratio some days is above 2 and most days is above 1.5.
 

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This discussion about going in and out of ketosis brings up a question for me. If you aren't in ketosis full-time, is it better to deliberately stay out of it? Most of the week I'm eating under 50 grams of carbs now, but when I go out to dinner I sometimes choose to eat up to maybe 100 or so (total for the day). The Ketostix are mostly a nice dusky pink : ) so I assume I'm in some level of ketosis part of the time. I understand that by choosing not to stay in ketosis I'm missing out on the full benefits of running on ketones instead of glucose, but am I doing extra damage to myself that would not be happening if I stayed completely out of ketosis? Hope that question makes sense.
I have exactly the same question. Hopefully someone knows the answer.
 

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Would i get better results if i use Meter since stix show nothing?
There are fewer brands of meters which measure blood ketones, and while the meters are either free or relatively cheap, the strips for measuring ketones cost about $2 or $2.50 each, and that's on sale.

One of the meters is Nova Max Plus - it's the one I use and I got it free. Another one is Precision Xtra or something like that. There may be others - those are the ones I'm aware of.
 

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If we're striving for 'normal' non-diabetic levels, then the lower the better. I'll likely never achieve non-diabetic levels, but getting into ketosis and staying there knocked an additional 20-30 points off my fasting levels, which was very welcome, since dawn phenomenon has been an issue with me.
But if my fasting BG numbers are already in the 70's and 80's, which I guess is a normal non-diabetic level, a 20~30 point drop would mean 40's to 60's, which would be bad news. Although not sure if it would work that way to put you into hypos, or just level you out at a level just above it.
 

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But if my fasting BG numbers are already in the 70's and 80's, which I guess is a normal non-diabetic level, a 20~30 point drop would mean 40's to 60's, which would be bad news. Although not sure if it would work that way to put you into hypos, or just level you out at a level just above it.
She meant she dropped from too high to normal. A ketogenic diet will never cause lows, only down to where it should be if it's not there already.
 
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Thanks. So I won't worry then I guess if I end up in ketosis, or in and out. I might eventually seek out ketosis specifically, but first need to get my weight down to normal and have everything stabilize. Don't want too many factors thrown into the pot all at once.
 

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Aaron? You use insulin and you're also taking Janumet which both have confirmed capabilities for hypos. If I were you, I'd pay more attention to that side of your equation than to anything you might be or not be eating. Listen to your meter and get your dosing right. And if you haven't read the studies on Januvia, it would be a good idea to be fully aware of what you're ingesting with your Janumet. That drug has some SERIOUS and permanent side effects.
 

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Aaron? You use insulin and you're also taking Janumet which both have confirmed capabilities for hypos. If I were you, I'd pay more attention to that side of your equation than to anything you might be or not be eating. Listen to your meter and get your dosing right. And if you haven't read the studies on Januvia, it would be a good idea to be fully aware of what you're ingesting with your Janumet. That drug has some SERIOUS and permanent side effects.
Hopefully I'll be off the insulin soon if I continue on my current trend. And I am planning on asking the doctor to switch me to plain Met when I see him in 3 weeks. The Janumet has been great for losing weight, but in reading all about the side effect, I don't think I want to take it long term. Thanks for your concern.
 

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If your doc puts you on plain metformin, you'll still be getting the drug that's helping you lose weight. Met is known to curb appetite, and is actually prescribed for non-diabetic patients to aid in weight loss.
 

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I'd heard that the Januvia part also can severely curb your appetite due to a separate effect. If that's true, I imagine I'll gain back a large part of my appetite, but hopefully having gone low-carb, I'll have a lot fewer cravings, and also I have a good idea now of how little I can eat and still maintain my energy and health, so as long as I can put up with the hunger, I think I might be able to do better. I was previously on a combination metformin and other drug, before the doc switched me to Janumet, and I never noticed it doing anything with regard to my appetite.
 

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I went low carb high fat in Feb 2013. I weighed 203 lbs. I lost 10 lbs down to 193 and went to a 32 inch waist. I started weight training back in March. One of my staples is cheese. I haven't counted calories but I am sure there are days where 3000-4000 calories or more were eaten. I have since gained 4 lbs of muscle and my waist is still 32 inches and I have not been stronger in decades maybe never stronger. I am 48. So I am thinking if you went lchf, the weight would come off easily. It did for me. If I hadn't gotten Diabetes, I would still be the 250 lbs unhealthy and trying to figure out how to lose weight while still eating massive amounts of carbs. I went from feeling doomed and depressed when first dx'd to being blessed. I do take basal insulin which for me helps a lot but its the lchf diet that keeps my fluctuations low.
 
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