[Daytona]

I wasn't sure where to post this, it's not new diabetes news but I am looking to discuss any science, studies, etc related to the idea that one should avoid excess protein. And not just because it can be converted to glucose.

I recently discovered Dr Ron Rosedale (thanks to his amazing post on Jimmy Moore's site rebutting Jaminet's "safe starch" theory). He advocates restricting protein because
1) it can be converted to glucose as we know
2) not only can it be insulinogenic and increase IGF but also increases your leptin.
3) it creates a chain of signals that ultimately contribute to diseases of aging.

It's the second reason that I found extremely interesting. In his lecture he explains the mtor pathway and how it increases leptin signaling. I listened to the entire lecture and understood probably 60% Most likely will need to read through the transcript to figure out what to look into from here.

I was curious if anyone else has looked into either the idea of restricting protein or Rosedale's ideas in particular. Just looking for other lectures to listen to, blogs to read or explanation as to why he's on the right track or not.

 

[foxl]

Interesting! Could be another explanation for my recently increased insulin needs. Must ... experiment (weird organ music, here!)!

Yes, particularly in light of my recent experiment of substituting green veg + CO for an oz of cheese ... this could be GOOD! Bwah hah hah!

 

[smorgan]

I have always been of the conviction that both carbs and protein need to be limited to control T2. I have no problem restricting carbs and being very consistent with that. The only time I run into problems is when protein becomes excessive.

The first thing that shows up is higher morning numbers. The difficulty is that so many fat sources have been stripped of most of their fat. I can't eat chicken breast at all and have to be very careful with fish - it's just too much protein without enough fat to go with it.

When travelling or otherwise restricted in food choices, I have no problem avoiding the carbs - most restaurants and cafeterias don't even blink when you ask for low-carb modifications any more - but disruption to the needed fatrotein balance is the difficulty I encounter.

I'm not sure about the science and there seem to be various arguments on different sides of the issue as to whether high protein damages kidneys or not, etc. But, my personal conviction and experience is that I have to restrict it somewhat just like I restrict carbs. Natural fats are my only "free food" and thankfully, they are very fulfilling and energizing.

 

[synger]

I've read a bit about this, and have considered moving from moderate carb to low carb and higher fat. I know I have pretty strong Insulin Resistance, and with only diet and exercise as my tools I sometimes feel like I just can't get past the IR. My numbers are consistently good, but I still need to lose a lot of weight. *sigh*

Like smorgan, I find it difficult to eat out with enough fat and not so much protein. At home it's easier, because I can use CO or olive oil or bacon grease or schmaltz to supplement my veggies and cut back on the protein portions.

 

[Patdart]

I just ask for more butter in a restaurant.

 

[smorgan]

My theory is that if you adopt a ketogenic diet and go into ketosis full-time (whereupon at least 95% of your body's cells make the switch from relying on glucose for energy to utilizing FFAs and/or ketones instead) you avoid the need for "getting past your IR".

This does require a certain level of discipline as it is much easier to fall out of ketosis than it is to get into it and getting back after a single slip-up can take three days or more. I have a zero-tolerance policy toward things which destroy my ketosis - no "exceptions" and no "binge days" - it's just too counter-productive - and I believe unhealthy or even dangerous in various ways I won't go into here. Sure, there are weightlifters who switch back and forth between ridiculously high-carb and total ketogenic, but they follow a VERY careful plan.

In this way, instead of fighting with your IR, you just go AROUND it. Insulin resistance only means your cells are impaired in their ability to utilize GLUCOSE. Those which can use FFAs or ketones (nearly all of them) can still do that just fine. When cells switch to using other fuel sources, IR isn't "cured" but it does become irrelevant and harmless.

If I was allergic to fish, I'd simply find other sources of protein. My system can't function well with glucose being the main or only source of ATP (cellular energy). Same principle: alternatives exist - simply switch to them.

I've read a bit about this, and have considered moving from moderate carb to low carb and higher fat. I know I have pretty strong Insulin Resistance, and with only diet and exercise as my tools I sometimes feel like I just can't get past the IR. My numbers are consistently good, but I still need to lose a lot of weight. *sigh*

Like smorgan, I find it difficult to eat out with enough fat and not so much protein. At home it's easier, because I can use CO or olive oil or bacon grease or schmaltz to supplement my veggies and cut back on the protein portions.

 

[synger]

You make a good point, smorgan, and I know it's worked very well for you. I always enjoy reading your posts, whatever board I'm on.

I'm rather at a loss what to do with my own diet, though. My BG is pretty much controlled by moderate carb, but I'm still morbidly obese. Even a very-low-carb ketogenic diet for three months didn't budge the scale any more. Now that my BG is fairly steady, I'm really itching to lose weight again.

I'm just feeling frustrated, I guess. Compared to many here, I have little to complain about.

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[Patdart]

I must ask...how low did you go on carbs? I know YMMV, but I lost 50 lbs on a modified Atkins...I just ate pretty much induction the whole way and still do, but I quit losing abruptly at my ideal weight and have not changed much in the about 6 months since then. I must confess, I didn't cheat much because I realized it was a for life situation for me and I had to get used to it. I eat about 30 or less carbs a day.

Good luck,

 

[synger]

I must ask...how low did you go on carbs? I know YMMV, but I lost 50 lbs on a modified Atkins...I just ate pretty much induction the whole way and still do, but I quit losing abruptly at my ideal weight and have not changed much in the about 6 months since then. I must confess, I didn't cheat much because I realized it was a for life situation for me and I had to get used to it. I eat about 30 or less carbs a day.

Good luck,

Thanks. When I was dx pre-D in 2010, I did a lot of reading online and immediately began testing my BG and going low-carb. I started with 30 carb/meal, and after a week or so, dropped to fewer than 30/day... so pretty low carb. I lost 40 pounds in four months, then the weight loss stopped completely. I tried zero carb (meat and fat); I tried raising back to 30/meal; I tried calorie counting; I tried Intermittent Fasting. Each time I try a new plan, or tweak the one I'm on, I do it for at least two months to give it a good run. Nothing more lost.

Now I'm trying JUDDD (calorie cycling) on a moderate-carb plan. Still avoiding most sweets/starches. It's a new plan for me, so I'll give it through the New Year. *sigh*

This is my life. An experiment of one.

 

[smorgan]

Six years before DX, I weight 236. I omitted lunch (just about every day) for 6 years and very, very slowly and evenly came down to 200. I put no other restrictions on myself. I called it "eating like a horse" since horses typically get 2 hay feedings a day 12 hours apart. Breakfast was whatever and however much I wanted. There was some hunger during the day, but I got used to it and it wasn't really hard.

After DX, I floundered around until I found my right diet after about 4 or 5 months (LC/HF) which I've stuck to for about 1.5 years now. My weight decreased VERY slowly mostly about 0.5 pounds/week until I reached 170. Then, it bounced back up to 174 and has stayed there for months. I had contemplated 165 as my "goal weight", but my interpretation is that my body has told me I was wrong.

Now, I eat when and what I want maintaining my macro-nutrient mix (and go through periods of eating much more or much less) and stay withing 2 pounds of the exact same weight.

The only way I can understand this is that ~174 is what I'm SUPPOSED to weigh. Fighting it would be foolhardy.

 

[Patdart]

synger, I didn't say I didn't plateau, I did twice, but after a few weeks down it went again. I remember one whole month I didn't lose a pound, but then the elevator started up again, and like smorgan I had a slightly lower goal, but my doctor said, "Stop it" and if it does go a bit lower, that's okay with me, but my BMI is about 22 now and clothes fit me in a size, which mattered to me a lot.

Good luck,

 

[Daytona]

I lost 40 pounds in four months, then the weight loss stopped completely. I tried zero carb (meat and fat); I tried raising back to 30/meal; I tried calorie counting; I tried Intermittent Fasting. Each time I try a new plan, or tweak the one I'm on, I do it for at least two months to give it a good run. Nothing more lost.
This is my life. An experiment of one.

I am in the same boat, so I feel for you! "I am an experiment of one" is my motto too.

 

[Daytona]

I don't usually eat enough protein to have problems with my BG the next day. However I have hit a very long stall, 4 months, and have been trying everything under the sun to lose weight again. And it's not a matter of the last 10 pounds either, so I am not ready to just accept that this is where my body wants to be.

When I learned about leptin, how it can affect your hormones and that evidently protein can increase your leptin, I decided to try to restrict the total amount of my protein. Previously I had only been watching the ratios.

For the past week I have been eating 75g of protein a day (it should be 50 but I'm finding that near impossible for me to do). As Salim noted, it's really hard to eat lean meats so I stick with pork and red meat. So far it hasn't caused me to feel different or lose weight.

Though I'm probably just banging my head against a wall since I already know that one of my medications causes weight gain. I stopped it for 3 days and bam, started losing weight. Since the medication isn't negotiable at the moment, I was hopeful to work around it by being stricter on the diet... *sigh*