[shyflutterby]

My dad who is also type 2 has become obsessed with this movie/diet. He loaned me a book by one of the Dr's. Has anyone else watched or used this to help "reverse" diabetes? I don't believe it's possible but I'm also curious about it.

 

[moon]

The physician who is interning with my rheumatologist recommended I read this just last week, saying he thought I'd find it interesting. Well maybe - but I'm white-knuckling my knife and not inclined to give it up, so might wait a while ...

 

[foxl]

So it is about veganism in another guise.

I am not too thrilled with that. I am a low-carb, ethical vegetarian (meaning I have not eaten meat for 38 yrs because I do not care for industry practices) who since becoming diabetic has relied increasingly on eggs and dairy fat to maintain my health.

I have antibodies, I really cannot swear up and down how I got to this state, but I do know I was eating a lot of carbs, and that those same "healthy" starches -- beans, lentils, whole grains -- spike me sky-high, now.

I also have found that I have had to supplement very high doses of vitamin D in order to get into the optimal range -- quite possibly due to decreased absorption from low fat consumption.

 

[fgummett]

I tried to watch this movie the other week -- I really do try to be open to all sides of any discussion -- but I just couldn't stomach it... maybe another time.

From what I saw so far it presents a vegan/vegetarian diet as the answer to the issues of the (SAD) Western Diet -- they quite rightly show the harm being caused by refined/processed/packaged foods but along the way they conflate that with meat in a sneaky way.

They start off in very general terms about the problem but once they get into the solution it is all about Caldwell Esselstyn MD and T. Colin Campbell PhD

T. Colin Campbell is famous for his China Study which was thoroughly debunked by Denise Minger...The China Study: A Formal Analysis and Response « Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet

I don't have any personal issue with a vegan or vegetarian approach if that is your choice -- for me it would be a lot more work to and not as enjoyable -- but I baulk at any suggestion that it is somehow the best way for everyone or that it will solve the World's problems with hunger etc...

The funny thing is that I am just as much against factory farming as the makers of this movie, but they want to put me on a lower moral standing because I choose to eat meat... I just prefer my meat to have lived an healthy life, outdoors in the sun.

In terms of Type 2 Diabetes I'd suggest that ANY carefully considered diet is likely be far superior to the SAD... at least in the short term.

 

[naynay]

I really do not believe that once you are a diabetic you can actually "reverse" diabetes. I believe you can live a life free of meds and insulin with careful control over your diet and exercise, but reverse? I don't think so. I was gestationally diabetic with my first pregnancy, and then the diabetes went away after birth, but showed up again with second pregnancy. I don't think it actually disappeared or went away after the second one, but was not as bad as it became in later years. Now I'm full blown and I don't think that if I get my numbers to a really great level that I will EVER be able to go back to eating high carbs or sugar without it rearing its ugly head again and again. So, no it will never go away, just might be controlled with diet and exercise, and a little help from meds when needed.

 

[wdmama]

It's vegan propaganda based on faulty science. There's plenty of critics out there who have debunked the "facts" they present. I turned it off after 30 minutes.

We are not rats. We are omnivores and cannot get all the necessary nutrients we need from a vegan diet

 

[Shalynne]

I'm pretty certain I'd need to reverse my genetic history before I could begin to attempt to reverse my diabetes.

That said, raw foods can be pretty darn good. Lots of crunchy snacks from the dehydrator/well-behaved toaster oven. Loves me some vegan cuisine, too! But I can't figure out how to make a non-spiky, full-time menu from either persuasion. (Nor from vegetarian, for that matter.)

 

[wdmama]

Yes, I always feel much better when I eat lots of fresh veggies and some fruit. But I've tried vegetarian before and couldn't make it work. I have ethical issues with modern methods of meat production, so I try to buy local grassfed whenever possible. My ultimate goal is to buy 100% of our meat from local farmers whose animals are raised the way they are supposed to be. It's just hard financially. We have cut back on how much meat we eat already so we can afford to buy all grassfed beef. We're going to try to make some bulk meat purchases next year, but we'll see.

 

[Shanny]

Besides which, those yahoos surely never ate a steak you could cut with a fork, or they'd forsake their vegan (PETA) ways in a New York minute!

 

[smorgan]

On top of everything else, I have yet to see any actual EVIDENCE that this diet does much good for diabetics. Has anyone? The only thing I've seen published was one short study of just a few people who got their A1C down from an average of 8.3 to an average of 7.1 by the end of the study. Am I supposed to be impressed? Anyone here satisfied (let alone "reversed") with an A1C of 7.1?! Some people are diagnosed with less than that.

On my unabashedly carnivorous (sure, I'm all for more ethical practices, but that's not going to stop me from eating what I need), very high-fat and low carb diet, my A1C went from 10.7 to 5.1 in a little over a year. And, it took me over half of that year to figure the diet out, so really only about half a year. No contest.

 

[Shalynne]

On top of everything else, I have yet to see any actual EVIDENCE that this diet does much good for diabetics. Has anyone? The only thing I've seen published was one short study of just a few people who got their A1C down from an average of 8.3 to an average of 7.1 by the end of the study. Am I supposed to be impressed? Anyone here satisfied (let alone "reversed") with an A1C of 7.1?! Some people are diagnosed with less than that.

On my unabashedly carnivorous (sure, I'm all for more ethical practices, but that's not going to stop me from eating what I need), very high-fat and low carb diet, my A1C went from 10.7 to 5.1 in a little over a year. And, it took me over half of that year to figure the diet out, so really only about half a year. No contest.

It's sort of a recurring theme: people pop up to tout diabetic "cures" and "reverses," even as they report still-diabetic glucose levels.

Since most folks don't know what normal levels are, and some docs urge us to accept high levels, it works! (Here, however, not so much.)

I guess this should be our standard question to all miracle marketers: Where's your glucose? (And can you back up that claim?)

I have deep ethical concerns, and try to buy responsibly. But I also believe that, since we evolved as omnivores, it only makes sense that some metabolisms can handle vegetarianism/veganism/raw, while some must cut down or eliminate animal protein, while still others simply cannot forgo animal protein.

 

[shyflutterby]

Thanks for all your input on this. I personally am a carnivore. And up till 3 weeks ago I wouldn't eat anything grown except potatoes. My dad is/was the same way. Once he started telling me about this I was leery of it then as a started reading the book I was dumbfounded! There is no way I could ever give up my meat! Much less any animal product! I like most of you believe that diabetes can be controlled but reversing?? To me reversing something is undoing what has already been done. And damage can't be undone! Just repaired. I just can't get my dad to understand that reversing just isn't possible. BUT he's actually taking steps to better his bg levels so I don't want to screw that up. He's been type 2 for almost 3 years and just now changing his ways. I just don't want him to think that he's going to "cure" himself by following this movie and book.

 

[fgummett]

Besides which, those yahoos surely never ate a steak you could cut with a fork, or they'd forsake their vegan (PETA) ways in a New York minute!

Then there is Dr Neal Barnard -- who also pushes a vegan agenda while camouflaging it as health science (for example as the founder and president of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine)... like I said above: if you choose to be vegan/vegetarian for your own reasons I can respect that BUT if you want to promote veganism please be up front about it!

Anyhow you may be interested that he grew up on his family's (Grandfathers?) cattle ranch, not becoming a vegan until his early 20s. So his tall good looks are not a product of the lifestyle he now promotes... although I might add that last time I saw him on PBS peddling his diet as the healthy solution to everything, he looked to me more like a walking cadaver than an advertisement for an healthy way of life.

Sorry but I just can't resist this clip from Futurama...

or this one from The Simpsons...

 

[fgummett]

Denise Minger has done her usual very thorough job of re-examining the science presented in this film...

“Forks Over Knives”: Is the Science Legit? (A Review and Critique)...

 

[Rad Warrier]

Besides which, those yahoos surely never ate a steak you could cut with a fork, or they'd forsake their vegan (PETA) ways in a New York minute!

Shanny, what movie is being discussed in this thread? I couldn't find a name or a link in this thread so far. Or is the name of the movie "Forks over knives?" Or is that some phrase meaning something more than forks and knives? I never use knives for eating. Infrequently I might use a spoon or a fork. It is my freshly washed right hand that I mostly use for eating, so pardon me for my ignorance of any significance of "forks over knives."

I remember having eaten steak, chicken, beef, lamb and fish for a brief period during my late teens as a rebellion against tradition. I don't know if the steak I ate then could be cut with a fork because we never used forks then. The lamb I ate did not come to haunt me in my dreams as it did in the case of Mahatma Gandhi. More than ethical reasons, it is the taste and texture of the stuff that dissuaded me from continuing the experiment in rebellion beyond my teen years. Many years later, when I came to Canada, I tried to eat the aforementioned stuff once more. To me, the stuff tasted worse than what I remembered from my late teen years because not enough spices were added to mask the real taste and smell of the stuff.

This "yahoo" is not inclined to forsake his vegetarian (and of course PETA) ways in a New York minute for any steak that is to be cut with a fork, knife or a even a power saw.

Regards,
Rad

 

[Shanny]

I had a little trouble with that the first minute or two also, Rad. The name of the movie is Forks Over Knives. And I misunderstood the metaphor too - apparently the fork represents food, and the knife is intended to represent medicine, as in scalpel. So my tender steak which could be cut with a fork was totally irrelevant.

The yahoos to whom I refer are the ones who fly under false colors. These are not honest vegetarians such as yourself & foxl, but vegans touting a political agenda as long as your arm. Yet they carefully conceal the term "vegan", instead substituting "plant-based diet". I'm in favor of people eating whatever they please for whatever reasons they please, and hopefully it doesn't compromise they good health, but I am outraged by people who purport to be one thing when they are in reality promoting something altogether different. I believe the ones who have made this movie are not true believers in either veganism or vegetarianism, but are in fact, interested in the power & the glory and above all, the money to be made.

And I'm heartily sorry to have stepped on your toes, my friend.

Shanny, what movie is being discussed in this thread? I couldn't find a name or a link in this thread so far. Or is the name of the movie "Forks over knives?" Or is that some phrase meaning something more than forks and knives? I never use knives for eating. Infrequently I might use a spoon or a fork. It is my freshly washed right hand that I mostly use for eating, so pardon me for my ignorance of any significance of "forks over knives."

I remember having eaten steak, chicken, beef, lamb and fish for a brief period during my late teens as a rebellion against tradition. I don't know if the steak I ate then could be cut with a fork because we never used forks then. The lamb I ate did not come to haunt me in my dreams as it did in the case of Mahatma Gandhi. More than ethical reasons, it is the taste and texture of the stuff that dissuaded me from continuing the experiment in rebellion beyond my teen years. Many years later, when I came to Canada, I tried to eat the aforementioned stuff once more. To me, the stuff tasted worse than what I remembered from my late teen years because not enough spices were added to mask the real taste and smell of the stuff.

This "yahoo" is not inclined to forsake his vegetarian (and of course PETA) ways in a New York minute for any steak that is to be cut with a fork, knife or a even a power saw.

Regards,
Rad

 

[Rad Warrier]

I had a little trouble with that the first minute or two also, Rad. The name of the movie is Forks Over Knives. And I misunderstood the metaphor too - apparently the fork represents food, and the knife is intended to represent medicine, as in scalpel. So my tender steak which could be cut with a fork was totally irrelevant.

The yahoos to whom I refer are the ones who fly under false colors. These are not honest vegetarians such as yourself & foxl, but vegans touting a political agenda as long as your arm. Yet they carefully conceal the term "vegan", instead substituting "plant-based diet". I'm in favor of people eating whatever they please for whatever reasons they please, and hopefully it doesn't compromise they good health, but I am outraged by people who purport to be one thing when they are in reality promoting something altogether different. I believe the ones who have made this movie are not true believers in either veganism or vegetarianism, but are in fact, interested in the power & the glory and above all, the money to be made.

And I'm heartily sorry to have stepped on your toes, my friend.

Shanny, you haven't stepped on my toes - you can never offend me because I very much like your open and forthright style. And I respect you for your perceptive attitude and your rational mind.

Regards,
Rad

 

[foxl]

RAD, if you support PETA, did you know they oppose Trap, Neuter, and Release of feral cats, claiming the lifestyle is "too harsh" for the cats? (as opposed to, say, KILLING them? or perhaps letting them reproduce at their biological rate?).

This is a VERY practical solution to which we have turned, for our neighborhood. My husband has TNR'd altogether 17 cats, many of whom have calmed down (sexually) and found caretaker households! I find PETA to be a few bricks shy of a load.

 

[Shanny]

Shanny, you haven't stepped on my toes - you can never offend me because I very much like your open and forthright style. And I respect you for your perceptive attitude and your rational mind.

Regards,
Rad

<blush> Thank you, Rad.

 

[lia]

This "yahoo" is not inclined to forsake his vegetarian (and of course PETA) ways in a New York minute for any steak that is to be cut with a fork, knife or a even a power saw.

Enjoyed that.

I'm a vegetarian too, but it is more of a handicap with diabetes than it is a cure. A vegetarian diet is naturally a high carb diet. (sigh)