[Irene]

Hi folks,

I had some "diabetes-like" symptoms about 10 years before certain diabetes symptoms: peripheral neuropathy (glove and stocking numbness in the hands) which i thought must have been carpal tunnel, stroke or seizure which may have been due to a medication withdrawal, bathroom problems, thirst and frequent voiding which is also a side effect of lithium, and gradually weight gain, fatigue, and abrupt sleepiness which i thought was narcolepsy or something. Near the end (3 months approx.) the thirst was incredible, and the naps were 3-4 hours of lack of consciousness, very high ketones for a month, infections, and fatigue.

Once diagnosed and treated with anti-diabetic meds, a lot of those symptoms, new and old disappeared.. phew! The diabetic nurse did think that diabetes progresse slowly. But I guess we do not have a way of predicting the eventual outcome.

So, now that I am much better after treatment from the Diabetic Team, I wonder if those symptoms were diabetes, and if so were reversed with insulin drugs. I ask because i have read in so many places that long-lasting high sugars can cause many complications, yet i cannot say for sure that those symptoms were related or will cause damange eventually. All I know is that i have a little bit of proteinuria from the tests.

Maybe I should have posted this on complications, but it also has to do with pre-diagnosis symptoms?

Thank you for reading -- it's the old which came first - the chicken or the egg question. I think medicine is full of such puzzles.

 

[Gizmo]

Your thingy says you are type 2, diagnosed in 2010, but you are asking about pre-diabetes. You probably know a person can't go from being type 2 to being pre-diabetic, and although some diabetics are able to get their bgs down into the range of a pre-diabetic and keep them there, they are still type 2. So to respond to your post, I will assume you were diagnosed pre-diabetic.

Your questions can't be answered in a few words, so here is a link where you can read about pre-diabetes.

 

[Irene]

Your thingy says you are type 2, diagnosed in 2010, but you are asking about pre-diabetes. You probably know a person can't go from being type 2 to being pre-diabetic, and although some diabetics are able to get their bgs down into the range of a pre-diabetic and keep them there, they are still type 2. So to respond to your post, I will assume you were diagnosed pre-diabetic.

Your questions can't be answered in a few words, so here is a link where you can read about pre-diabetes.

I think you misunderstood me Gizmo. I may have misled you in the way i described the sequence of events. For the first 10 years, maybe 7, prior to being diagnosed as Diabetes 2, i had symptoms which may have been those of a prediabetic. On the other hand, they may have been symptoms related to other problems. Near the diagnosis though, (3 months prior to) there is no question it was diabetes 2 as my medical team recognized. I guess the question is, can you have prediabetes for a long time before it reached Diabetes 2.

 

[Daytona]

I had symptoms of diabetes for 20 years before being diagnosed last year. When I was diagnosed I looked at some of my old blood labs from high school and yup... I had a high fasting blood sugar.

So based on my experience, you can go a LONG time undiagnosed.... *grumble* stupid ignorant doctors *mutter*

 

[Irene]

I had symptoms of diabetes for 20 years before being diagnosed last year. When I was diagnosed I looked at some of my old blood labs from high school and yup... I had a high fasting blood sugar.

So based on my experience, you can go a LONG time undiagnosed.... *grumble* stupid ignorant doctors *mutter*

Hee hee, yup -- the idea has crossed my mind, that this global epidemic of diabetes (whatever its cause - i'm not going there now), is going to cost many countries a lot of money. And that, perhaps more vigilance could have been paid to yearly checkups. I think in my parents' time there was such a thing. But unfortunately, other big projects, such as military expenditures took priority in many countries. Of course, this is assuming that prediabetes is a progressive disease. Maybe the beta cells deteriorate or the lock and key thingy does, be it due to genetic causes, gradually or acutely, due to environmental, or external, e.g. viruses.

I guess even in a perfect world, with a regular check-up, the question remains -- can you reverse this disorder entirely? If not then delay the complications with a high mortality. I think from my experience had I been left without insulin oral meds I would surely die soon, well maybe soonish, or sooner.

 

[MCS]

I guess to answer your question, most people with diabetes or Pre-D have had it coming on for a long time, (yrs) before being Dxed with the disease.

 

[Irene]

I guess to answer your question, most people with diabetes or Pre-D have had it coming on for a long time, (yrs) before being Dxed with the disease.

"most" is the operative word i guess - esp. for hereditary histories; but there are other causes as well; whatever, frequent tests might show a progression or not;

 

[MCS]

What is it that you want to test, glucose levels. The unsuspecting individual (like myself) relates the ill feeling before Dx to something other than Diabetes. A little more than 2 yrs after being Dxed my BG level have been constantly between 70-90 with the occasional spike over 100 for a short period of time. My FBG is between mid 70's to mid 80's depending on how I slept during the night. Diabetes may progress, but your BG levels can remain at a some what normal level.

"most" is the operative word i guess - esp. for hereditary histories; but there are other causes as well; whatever, frequent tests might show a progression or not;

 

[Irene]

What is it that you want to test, glucose levels. The unsuspecting individual (like myself) relates the ill feeling before Dx to something other than Diabetes. A little more than 2 yrs after being Dxed my BG level have been constantly between 70-90 with the occasional spike over 100 for a short period of time. My FBG is between mid 70's to mid 80's depending on how I slept during the night. Diabetes may progress, but your BG levels can remain at a some what normal level.

Yes, the glucose levels. I think that is the most indicative test of diabetes mellitus, with urine tests. To have diabetes without high blood sugar, might be diabetes insipidus or just not high enough to be detected.

 

[MCS]

There are no tests for type 2 diabetes to test for the disease itself. It is a diagnosis of symptoms, insulin resistantance from C-peptide, elevated BG levels, etc. Once you get your BG level back to normal and you over come IR, other than an GTT tests which again would be a symptom of the disease. They have isolated several genetic markers which would indicate the possibility of getting the disease.

Myself I have no outwardly signs of the disease any more, no neuropathy, no high BG levels, no urination problems, or any other symptoms of the disease, my A1C is 4.6. By all medical standards I do not have a problem with Diabetes any more, but should I break from my routine, it would certainly rear its ugly head.

 

[Irene]

There are no tests for type 2 diabetes to test for the disease itself. It is a diagnosis of symptoms, insulin resistantance from C-peptide, elevated BG levels, etc. Once you get your BG level back to normal and you over come IR, other than an GTT tests which again would be a symptom of the disease. They have isolated several genetic markers which would indicate the possibility of getting the disease.

Myself I have no outwardly signs of the disease any more, no neuropathy, no high BG levels, no urination problems, or any other symptoms of the disease, my A1C is 4.6. By all medical standards I do not have a problem with Diabetes any more, but should I break from my routine, it would certainly rear its ugly head.

No diabetes *anymore*! That's interesting. So, you had high BG levels, and managed to lower them? Does your routine include medications or diet/exercise? You say if you broke your routine you would go back to diabetes ( i think ). This is very interesting regarding the nature of beta cell destruction or response.

 

[MCS]

I was Dxed with a FBG of 350 after a week of no carbs, (slim jims and hard boiled eggs). I had severe weight loss, visibly lost muscle in my arms and legs. I suffered a MRSA infection and yeast over my entire body. DKA twice before being Dxed. I had neuropathy so bad in my hands I could barely drive a car let alone work at my job. I had to tape popsicle sticks to all of my fingers and wear wrist braces on both wrists to even work. Both feet had neuro., suffered leg cramps, I had a bleed in my left eye. Two years ago I had a quadruple by-pass. I was circling the drain a few times.

I do not take any meds now except for Lisinopril for BP. I keep my BG levels normal thru diet exercise and herbs and supps

 

[Irene]

I was Dxed with a FBG of 350 after a week of no carbs, (slim jims and hard boiled eggs). I had severe weight loss, visibly lost muscle in my arms and legs. I suffered a MRSA infection and yeast over my entire body. DKA twice before being Dxed. I had neuropathy so bad in my hands I could barely drive a car let alone work at my job. I had to tape popsicle sticks to all of my fingers and wear wrist braces on both wrists to even work. Both feet had neuro., suffered leg cramps, I had a bleed in my left eye. Two years ago I had a quadruple by-pass. I was circling the drain a few times.

I do not take any meds now except for Lisinopril for BP. I keep my BG levels normal thru diet exercise and herbs and supps

Wow! So I guess your pancreas was still working well but interrupted? How did your doctor explain this -- it goes against most medical authorities. But I am happy for you.

 

[MCS]

I took each one of my problems as a single problem and researched what supps or herbals to take to improve a particular system. Neuro, digestion, IR, Insulin release, GLP-1, etc. There is a lot more to elevated BG levels than not enough insulin. Your body releases glucose from your liver as soon as your brain intercepts a signal that something is wrong, unrelated to carb consumption. Inflammation, illness, injury, stress, etc., all will send a signal to your brain that repair is in order so it signals your liver to excrete glucose. If your signaling systems is out of whack then you will have elevated BG levels, (which most T2's have). I once had a threshold of 150 in the mornings before my pancreas would release insulin, I tested this thru fasting in the morning. Now my FBG is low and I make it stays there by consuming coffee, with 4g of sugar, 4 packets of art sweetener, heavy cream and coconut oil. It facilitates a GLP-1 release which prompts your pancreas to release insulin and your liver to stop leaking glucose. After a breakfast of fake oatmeal (Almond meal and Flaxseed) my BG level is 74 before I go eat lunch and I am hungry for sure.

 

[smorgan]

My wife has been pre-diabetic since the birth of our last (eighth) child. That daughter just turned 17. She has never progressed to "diagnosable" diabetes until now.

I don't believe "pre-diabetes" is really precisely understood. It's really just a "check engine" light - an arbitrary boundary imposed on a bell-curve measure. The belief is that once you cross a certain threshold (which they change from time to time), you are "headed" for what they call "frank" diabetes at some unknown yet inevitable point in the future. I don't think their knowledge is as complete as they would have you believe.

Is everyone who meets the "pre-diabetic" criteria like over 110 fasting, etc. definitely headed to "frank" diabetes in their lifetime? I don't think anyone has data to prove that one way or the other. There is a lot of guessing going on.

IMO, everyone should be cautious about excessive glucose with or without a "pre-diabetes" diagnosis.

Think about this:

One person has very tightly regulated BG. They just bounce around between 80 and 90 all the time, no matter what they eat. Their system responds promptly and thoroughly to incoming glucose and takes care of business. I'll call this one the hyper-regulator.

Another person has a "lazier" system. When they eat, their BG goes up somewhere between 130 (the AVERAGE after-meal peak in one famous CGM trial of healthy non-diabetics) and 160 (up 2 standard deviations in the same trial), but they return to baseline in about 2 hours after eating. I'll call this one the lazy-regulator.

Most people on this list would ASSUME that the second one is much more likely to develop diabetes. But do we really know that? I don't think we do. We have very little data on the BG and A1C readings of the non-diabetic population or even the diabetic population prior to diagnosis.

Do the lazy regulators progress to diabetes because their systems were weak to begin with and eventually get overwhelmed? Or, to the hyper-regulators succumb to diabetes because their [over-achieving?] systems worked so hard - confronted with the same horrible SAD diet - that they wore themselves out?

Pancreas wear-out is after all one of the major theories of the genesis of T2. Of the two, it seems that the hyper-regulators would be MORE prone to wearing out their pancreas than the lazy-regulators. Either theory is equally plausible at this point and we simply don't have the data to solve it.

One thing is clear: Adopting a diet which minimizes incoming glucose and therefore insulin need/production would help in all cases.

 

[Shanny]

You had us all on the edge of our seats (and on our "prayer bones", I might add) for sure . . . and your determination to gain/keep control is phenomenal. (((Marty))) (I remember Mrs. Marty back then - coming onto the forum under your name & keeping us posted on your condition . . . )

I was Dxed with a FBG of 350 after a week of no carbs, (slim jims and hard boiled eggs). I had severe weight loss, visibly lost muscle in my arms and legs. I suffered a MRSA infection and yeast over my entire body. DKA twice before being Dxed. I had neuropathy so bad in my hands I could barely drive a car let alone work at my job. I had to tape popsicle sticks to all of my fingers and wear wrist braces on both wrists to even work. Both feet had neuro., suffered leg cramps, I had a bleed in my left eye. Two years ago I had a quadruple by-pass. I was circling the drain a few times.

I do not take any meds now except for Lisinopril for BP. I keep my BG levels normal thru diet exercise and herbs and supps

 

[MCS]

Thanks Shanny, I just found out that right after the surgery I had a bleed in my left eye, could be why I was seeing red back then, I thought I was just mad.

 

[Irene]

My wife has been pre-diabetic since the birth of our last (eighth) child. That daughter just turned 17. She has never progressed to "diagnosable" diabetes until now.

I don't believe "pre-diabetes" is really precisely understood. It's really just a "check engine" light - an arbitrary boundary imposed on a bell-curve measure. The belief is that once you cross a certain threshold (which they change from time to time), you are "headed" for what they call "frank" diabetes at some unknown yet inevitable point in the future. I don't think their knowledge is as complete as they would have you believe.

Is everyone who meets the "pre-diabetic" criteria like over 110 fasting, etc. definitely headed to "frank" diabetes in their lifetime? I don't think anyone has data to prove that one way or the other. There is a lot of guessing going on.

IMO, everyone should be cautious about excessive glucose with or without a "pre-diabetes" diagnosis.

Think about this:

One person has very tightly regulated BG. They just bounce around between 80 and 90 all the time, no matter what they eat. Their system responds promptly and thoroughly to incoming glucose and takes care of business. I'll call this one the hyper-regulator.

Another person has a "lazier" system. When they eat, their BG goes up somewhere between 130 (the AVERAGE after-meal peak in one famous CGM trial of healthy non-diabetics) and 160 (up 2 standard deviations in the same trial), but they return to baseline in about 2 hours after eating. I'll call this one the lazy-regulator.

Most people on this list would ASSUME that the second one is much more likely to develop diabetes. But do we really know that? I don't think we do. We have very little data on the BG and A1C readings of the non-diabetic population or even the diabetic population prior to diagnosis.

Do the lazy regulators progress to diabetes because their systems were weak to begin with and eventually get overwhelmed? Or, to the hyper-regulators succumb to diabetes because their [over-achieving?] systems worked so hard - confronted with the same horrible SAD diet - that they wore themselves out?

Pancreas wear-out is after all one of the major theories of the genesis of T2. Of the two, it seems that the hyper-regulators would be MORE prone to wearing out their pancreas than the lazy-regulators. Either theory is equally plausible at this point and we simply don't have the data to solve it.

One thing is clear: Adopting a diet which minimizes incoming glucose and therefore insulin need/production would help in all cases.

I'm sorry about your daughter Mr. Morgan. There is a hereditary factor there, and so with me. I know so little about endocrinology, except what I read in some medical general books, and the net. I think it is a very powerful and complex area in medicine, maybe responsible for disorders that are not connected with hormonal/enzyme stuff but mainly with physiological deterioration of cells in the case of diabetes. Cancer is studied the same way, only the cells are said to proliferate.

There may be other factors that are necessary to make something which was potential, actual. For example, I also forgot to mention that I had one flu after another before frank diabetes (though with the "prediabetic symptoms" i mentioned, and had not taken a vaccine for either -- H1N1 and a common flu. But they knocked me out for 6 months. Who knows?
Maybe they played a role for the lack of care and crappy diet while i was ill.

 

[Patdart]

MCS, what is your supplement list? Or, I'm sure you've posted your method earlier, but I've missed it and would like to see it. Can you tell me where to look for it? I don't know how to search the site for posts by an individual or I'd look for it.

Thanks,

 

[MCS]

Not sure if this is the place to post this or not, maybe Shanny can move it if improper.

I will just type the list of things I have used present and past. I had to determine what my problems were in order to fix them.

Ground Flaxseed 1/4 cup a day
Resistant Starch 40-50 grams a day, at first twice a day for 2 weeks
Vanadyl Sulfate (no longer use)
Gymnemia Sylvestrae (no longer use)
Bitter Melon (no longer use)
Dandelion Root ( on occasion) (GLP-1 activator)
Milk Thistle (on occasion) (liver and GLP-1 Activator)
Zinc, B-Vit, Selenium, Magnesium Glycinate, Vit E, COQ10, Vit D
Alpha Lipoic Acid (1800mg a day divided) no longer use
GABA up to 5 to 10 grams a day (adrenalin response) occasional
L-Theanine, occasional (adrenalin response)
Ashwheghanda, adrenalin response, occasional use
L-Arginine, 5grams a day, currently taking
Green tea extract, occasional
DHEA 50, once a day
Testosterone injections, weekly
Aspirin, 4 (325mg) a day, up to 6 a day then down to 4 a day.
Currently taking 6 Acidolphilius pills a day.
L-Carnatine, L-Carnosine, 40grams of fish oil to resolve cholesterol problems

The biggest change in steps was the resistant starch, then the GABA, Aspirin, Testosterone. I found out that for me, my elevated base line was due to more than just not enough insulin or what I ate.