The Diabetes Forum Support Community For Diabetics Online banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,911 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How very interesting ... Salim pointed out elsewhere, that only humans and certain ruminants experience ketosis. He was pointing out that rat studies are thus kinda useless.

I was curious, how had I not known THIS? So I googled. I found the following:
a pro-vegetarian website pointing out this factoid, and stating it just proves we are meant to be vegetarian (disclosure, I AM vegetarian!)

PETA arguing similarly, and referring to ketosis as a DANGEROUS state (HAHAHA -- I'll show them dangerous. They do not believe I should aid my feral cats).The Natural Human Diet | PETA.org
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,024 Posts
Hmmmm, Linda.....I'm a sittin here trying to decide whether I am human or a ruminant....too lazy to Google "ruminant". I eat both veggies and meat, so I am carnivorous? I promise I will not eat my cats, feral or not! :p
 
  • Like
Reactions: foxl

·
WHAT, I got D
Joined
·
3,849 Posts
I took 2 yrs of mammolgy in college, I can honestly say that was as one sided argument as I ever read. If it were true the human race would have died out long ago when we went thru the hunter gather phase of existence. WOW is all I can end with
 
  • Like
Reactions: foxl

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,076 Posts
I took 2 yrs of mammolgy in college, I can honestly say that was as one sided argument as I ever read. If it were true the human race would have died out long ago when we went thru the hunter gather phase of existence. WOW is all I can end with
Yup, and if you continue into the comments, the ignorance reaches unbelievable levels.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,665 Posts
Ruminants are animals that that digest their food then upchuck it to chew it again and re-digest it. This is what enables cattle, sheep, etc to eat really fibrous foods like grass and get any nutrition out of it. People are definitely NOT ruminants. :D

I did not know that ketosis was that uncommon in other animals. To the internets!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,665 Posts
Okay so my initial searches did not turn up anything saying that only ruminants and humans experience ketosis. Can you post a link to either Salim's post or give me a hint as to what are the right search keywords?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,911 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I could not read a whole lot of their BS, either, Salim.

Actually the pro-vegetarian (meaning, VEGAN) people are the only place I have read that. It seems odd, since obligate carnivores would seemingly benefit most from ketosis ... will keep looking for "real" information!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,095 Posts
I just read a rapport that says cats are supposed to be in ketoses all the time.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: foxl

·
WHAT, I got D
Joined
·
3,849 Posts
My thoughts are with out doing any research on the subject is that true carnivores very seldom go into Ketosis. This would be due to a steady stream of protein and GNG. Omnivores on the other hand would be a better candidate for Ketosis because of the varied diet and the lack of protein at times would lead to this state of being.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,665 Posts
GOOD scholarly article on Cats!!! http://www.purebredsplus.org/links/zorans_article.pdf VERY good, indeed! And discusses recent obesity and diabetes in cats.
This is an amazing article!!! It really covers a ton of ground around what nutrients cats need, identifying deficiencies, diabetes and fatty liver. I wish I had read this years ago as I lost a newly adapted cat to fatty liver...

Thanks Foxl for posting this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,076 Posts
OK, I should have been more careful about citing that other article which claimed "ketosis" is limited to humans and ruminants. Actually, it was really propaganda attempting (ONCE AGAIN) to paint ketosis in humans as somehow bad or a pathological condition which it isn't.

The case of cows is totally, totally different. First of all, it only affects females. Unlike human ketosis, it is an illness and leads to health complications or even death. At first I thought OK, maybe this is bovine ketoacidosis but no, their acid does not go up. So what gives? Again, this is unique only to bovines and only to the female - and probably related to centuries of breeding and husbandry to make a creature which produces an abnormally large amount of milk. It is only triggered during the peak of milk production when there is a large demand for glucose and it must be glucose - ketones cannot stand in.

Here's a technical description followed by a less technical one:

Bovine ketosis requires the combination of intense adipose mobilization and a high glucose demand. Both of these conditions are present in early lactation, at which time negative energy balance leads to adipose mobilization and milk synthesis creates a high glucose demand. Adipose mobilization is accompanied by high blood serum concentrations of nonesterified fatty acids (NEFA). During periods of intense gluconeogenesis, a large portion of serum NEFA is directed to ketone body synthesis in the liver. Thus, the clinicopathologic characterization of ketosis includes high serum concentrations of NEFA and ketone bodies and low concentrations of glucose. In contrast to many other species, cattle with hyperketonemia do not have concurrent acidemia. The serum ketone bodies are acetone, acetoacetate, and β-hydroxybutyrate (BHB).

Did you get all that?? I made it through the second sentence. While it is good to have such detailed articles explaining the unexplainable, I also like to have the ‘to the point’ lesson. The best explanation of Ketosis I ever heard is as follows. “During freshening, a cow goes through a great deal of stress and uses an extreme amount of energy. Then milk production kicks into gear, resulting in more energy requirements. If the animal is unable to consume and utilize enough energy to meet these demands, she is experiencing a negative energy balance and will come down with ketosis.” If you like analogies, think of it this way: you burn 3 face cord of wood a week and only cut 1 a week to replace it, what’s going to happen?? A cold winter!! That is why we cut and stack wood to last not days but seasons. The same concept can be used in preventing animal health problems such as Ketosis; increase your animals’ feed intakes and energy levels prior to calving to prevent a big fall.
This most certainly does not happen in humans nor anything remotely resembling it.

This unhealthy form of "ketosis" is limited to domesticated cows and is not similar to states with the same name anywhere else. Ketosis in all other creatures is a normal, healthy and non-threatening state. Ketoacidosis (high fat mobilization along with extremely high blood sugar) is of course dangerous but has nothing to do with ketosis and is more or less its opposite.

Bovine "ketosis:
- very high fat mobilization and FFAs in the blood
- very high demand for and utilization of glucose (for milk production specifically)
- low blood sugar
- NO excess acidity in the blood (so not at all like human ketoacidosis)
- overall energy deficit
- harmful to overall health

Human ketosis:
- normal blood sugars
- low (but sufficient because of low need) insulin
- very low demand for and use of glucose (because cells have switched to ketones)
- a healthy condition, no adverse affects on health

Human ketoacidosis:
- very high blood sugar, never under 220 and rare under 300
- very low (and grossly insufficient) insulin
- inability to utilize glucose (because of lack of insulin and/or insulin resistance)
- a dangerous condition which typically spirals out of control quickly and can be fatal.
 

·
WHAT, I got D
Joined
·
3,849 Posts
I did a little searching myself, come to find out some migratory birds use Ketosis as major fuel source for flying very long distances. I would also think that all mammals that hibernate or go into torpor definitely utilize ketosis to survive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: foxl

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
disclosure, I AM vegetarian!
Honest to the core :)

too lazy to Google "ruminant".
I have dictionary.com near the top of my bookmarks, and use it more and more lately.

I just looked up ketosis and got this.

ke·to·sis
1 : an abnormal increase of ketone bodies in the body in conditions of reduced or disturbed carbohydrate metabolism (as in uncontrolled diabetes mellitus) compare ACIDOSIS ALKALOSIS
2 : a nutritional disease of cattle and sometimes sheep, goats, or swine that is marked by reduction of blood sugar and the presence of ketone bodies in the blood, tissues, milk, and urine and is associated with digestive and nervous disturbances

I'd expect they should be unbiased. This was complete news to me, and interesting.

Another vegetarian link, the guy who won Germany's strongest man, is a vegetarian.

http://www.thediscerningbrute.com/2011/08/11/germanys-strongest-man-is-a-vegetarian/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,076 Posts
I wouldn't call that unbiased! They referred to ketone levels in ketosis (in any form) as "abnormal". There are whole populations who live their lives in this state and most likely the entire human race lived in this state (or most of them) for 99% of our existence. "Abnormal"? I hardly think that is an objective term.

For ketoacidosis, yes, those would be "abnormal" (and dangerous) levels of ketones for not for ordinary diet-induced, non-starvation ketosis.

Note that the way some people use the word, ketosis is a superset of ketoacidosis, i.e., all ketoacidosis is ketosis but not all ketosis is ketoacidosis. But, even with definition, they have still apparently applied "abnormal" to all of ketosis which is neither correct nor objective.


Honest to the core :)



I have dictionary.com near the top of my bookmarks, and use it more and more lately.

I just looked up ketosis and got this.

ke·to·sis
1 : an abnormal increase of ketone bodies in the body in conditions of reduced or disturbed carbohydrate metabolism (as in uncontrolled diabetes mellitus) compare ACIDOSIS ALKALOSIS
2 : a nutritional disease of cattle and sometimes sheep, goats, or swine that is marked by reduction of blood sugar and the presence of ketone bodies in the blood, tissues, milk, and urine and is associated with digestive and nervous disturbances

I'd expect they should be unbiased. This was complete news to me, and interesting.

Another vegetarian link, the guy who won Germany's strongest man, is a vegetarian.

The Discerning Brute: fashion, food & etiquette for the ethically handsome man » Blog Archive » Germany’s Strongest Man Is A Vegetarian
 
  • Like
Reactions: foxl

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,911 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes, that site clearly confused ketosis with ketoacidosis! SIGH. Wish it were not so hard to tell the truth from the dreck, out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,557 Posts
I have a concern about ketosis so I bumped this thread. I don't pretend to know very much about the state of ketosis and for that reason my question may sound silly to those of you who are knowledgeable. I am Type 1, insulin dependent and on an insulin pump. I recently checked my ketones via 'Precision-Xtra'. I was surprised to find that I had a small amount of ketones even though my BG was low at 90 (5.0).

Am I correct to assume that the ketosis has probably happened because I'm trying diligently to follow a low-carb diet?
 

·
WHAT, I got D
Joined
·
3,849 Posts
Yes ketosis will happen in humans if you consistantly stay under approx 50g of carbs a day and your protein and fat consumption is in the right ratio. It is perfectly normal. I do not know to much about the T1 body though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
I have a concern about ketosis so I bumped this thread. I don't pretend to know very much about the state of ketosis and for that reason my question may sound silly to those of you who are knowledgeable. I am Type 1, insulin dependent and on an insulin pump. I recently checked my ketones via 'Precision-Xtra'. I was surprised to find that I had a small amount of ketones even though my BG was low at 90 (5.0).

Am I correct to assume that the ketosis has probably happened because I'm trying diligently to follow a low-carb diet?
Yes. You may also find trace ketones when you wake in the morning without low carbing.

I've been in ketosis much of the last few years, and I am working to get back in that state. I feel and do much better.

I do worry about ketoacidosis, though. Typically KDA takes a few days or more before it becomes critical, but I worry that low carbing may cut that time period short. But, I rarely have high BGs when I'm in ketosis. I've hit the second highest reading on Ketostix many times but never the highest.

I've never read about anybody having problems with ketosis from following a ketogenic diet. It is a common fear but as far as I can tell, it's just a fear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,557 Posts
I had no reason to consider ketosis until my Dexcom CGM starting sending me alarms consistently during the night. When I would get up and test my BG has been low - something that normally does not happen to me if my basal rates are set correctly.

Reducing my basal rates is not a problem with the pump - just a bit of a surprise and a nuisance at the moment.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top