[Darbro]

I finally got my Bernstein book in the mail yesterday and so am excited to start reading, but have to wait owing to some work deadlines. To that end I wanted to ask for feedback on my recent thoughts from those that have done extensive reading or from experience.

The issue is with protein in the diet, and I know that LCHF followers (and I am now one myself), seem to strongly advocate limiting protein. I am now doing this. My reason was because amino acids from the protein meal are known to stimulate glucagon secretion from the pancreatic alpha cells, and my understanding is that whether the liver stores glucose or makes it, is determined by the insulin/glucagon(+epinephrine) ratio. Since the liver already doesn't "see" the insulin, glucagon wins and the liver produces glucose (via gluconeogenesis). If a type 2 still has beta-cell function and there is some insulin, then taking in protein would really contribute to the "resistance" by raising the bar. Amino acids trigger both insulin and glucagon secretion, but the effect on glucagon is huge. With this in mind, I'm thinking now that protein could be bad, particularly later at night. At least it would make sense to eat the required protein in small amounts. I've stopped taking protein before bed time and although only a few days, it seems that my fbg is somewhat lower. Interestingly, I came across a few papers where glucagon receptor antagonists work to stabilize bg in preclinical models, suggesting that the reasoning could be valid.

Has anyone seen this themselves? meaning decrease protein and see a good effect.

 

[jwags]

I just oredered the new edition of Dr B's book and got it yesterday. I read his original version and went through it 4 or 5 times with a highlighter. I am interested to see how much new info is in his new version. Protein is an individual thing. I don't limit it but I don't avoid it. I would have to say my bgs are best when the marjority of my meal is fat. So I aim for about 30 grams of fat, 20-25 grams of protein and about 10 grams of carbs. But each of us are different so you have to use your meter to determine what works. Usually with protein if I eat too much I will get delayed spikes 4 or 5 hours later.

 

[Darbro]

I just oredered the new edition of Dr B's book and got it yesterday. I read his original version and went through it 4 or 5 times with a highlighter. I am interested to see how much new info is in his new version. Protein is an individual thing. I don't limit it but I don't avoid it. I would have to say my bgs are best when the marjority of my meal is fat. So I aim for about 30 grams of fat, 20-25 grams of protein and about 10 grams of carbs. But each of us are different so you have to use your meter to determine what works. Usually with protein if I eat too much I will get delayed spikes 4 or 5 hours later.

Your description sounds like a nice plate of fried chicken wings with some bbq sauce

 

[VeeJay]

Usually with protein if I eat too much I will get delayed spikes 4 or 5 hours later.

That's interesting. I haven't heard/read this from anyone before - but I have read from other members' posts that protein at night raises their FBG, so perhaps this sort of thing is happening during the night.

Not sure I'll ever get up in the middle of the night to check on this. Durin the day I don't usually test at 4 or 5 hours (no reason to, really, except ...maye it might be good to check after a very high protein meal, like a steak).

 

[naynay]

When I started eating LC/HF, I took it that I should eat very little carb, incorporate the good saturated fat like CO and EVOO, avacadoes, etc., and eat protein. Perhaps the reason I am having difficulty with my bg's (especially fbg's) is because of too much protein? I didn't really think I was ingesting THAT much, but perhaps I am? I will have to really watch the intake and see how this affects my bg's. Could be the key that I'm looking for here. I've been unusually high lately, and although a number of things right now could be causing it, I've been extremely frustrated and a bit depressed because of it. I continue to eat LC/HF, but again eating the protein as well. Sometimes this is so difficult and confusing. Argh!

 

[Patdart]

As part of my experiment, I had almost no carbs for b'fast and lunch and red beans with lots of sausage for dinner w/ a small salad w/ dried fruit for dinner...at 1 1/2 hr I was at 106, so maybe my experiment is right and I can't have protein supper. Gotta retest...steak at night may not work for me.

We'll see in the morning,

 

[Daytona]

I have posted often about protein but maybe didn't stress much that they are suggested minimums. I hope I have not caused people to think that protein is something that must be restricted or can be restricted in the same way carbs can be (i.e. your meter is enough to monitor how that's working for you).

I have concerns about someone deciding to "limit my protein" or "not eat any protein at dinner" without understanding how much protein they should eat. The consequences of inadequate protein can be a steady loss of muscle, bone and organ tissue. You won't feel it happen either so unless you are monitoring your lean body mass (not the same thing as your weight) you could end up a year or 5 later in a much worse situation than before.

I'm not saying don't tinker with your diet. Only that if you are eating an amount of protein calculated to preserve lean body mass, have tried mixing up meal timing, portions, adding in fat, etc and are still having higher than desired FBG I would recommend following up with a doctor to either find some alternatives (maybe insulin) or at the very least monitor lean body mass while you experiment.

If I am misunderstanding, then please don't take this as criticism. I only want to stress that people monitor for unwanted side effects of restricted protein intake.

 

[VeeJay]

I understand your concern, and it's best to mention it now than to risk someone may misinterpret. After all, there are far more "guests" reading these threads than members discussing the topics.

 

[Darbro]

The impetus for my post was my own thoughts as I move up the learning curve, hoping to get feedback from veterans with experience and/or those well-read in the topic (there seem to be quite a few biochemists around here).

I think Daytona's discussions of protein are interesting and my comment about limiting protein is not incongruent with it. The point that I outlined was that for type 2, glucagon is not our friend in so much as it's levels will determine how much insulin is required to turn off gluconeogenesis in the liver. It is the ratio of insulin (effective)/ glucacon (+epinephrine) that controls glucose production in the liver (via glycogen breakdown or increased gluconeogenesis). From my newbie perspective, one of the goals of Type 2 is to stop the liver from making glucose, which is thought to be one of the most pertinent mechanisms of metformin. Since protein/amino acids stimulate pancreatic alpha cell release of glucagon, I just reasoned that it might be reasonable to limit the amount of protein consumed in one sitting. I agree that the minimum amount to maintain muscle mass is needed, maybe just not all at once.

For me the problem is compounded by my desire to lose some body fat, which needs to have more glucagon to mobilize lipids from adipocytes. The conflict between liver and adipocytes is my conundrum at this point and all I can think of is to keep LCHF, lower total protein and spread throughout the day, and lower total calorie intake. This strategy seems to be supported by many folks here.

 

[naynay]

I do not plan on eliminating protein from my diet by no means; after reading the discussion regarding protein, it just made me start to take an account of what I do eat, and how much of it I eat. I could be eating too much protein which in turn can cause my numbers to be reflective of that. I might just try cutting down to a smaller amount of protein and see how that works. It is really hard to eat so much good fat because I want to use protein and carbs to eat that fat...:~ But, I'm slowly learning. This is going to be a long road, but I'm determined to get there. As I've mentioned before, being on insulin and trying to lose weight is like bouncing your head against a brick wall. It is very difficult, but I'm going to succeed no matter what. And, I plan on doing it the right way, with a LC/HF healthy diet, exercise, and whatever else it takes. I am bound and determined to not have to be on insulin the rest of my life. I just think my body is so resistant it is going to take longer than most. Oh well. As long as the powers that be deem it advantageous to keep me 6 feet up and sucking wind, I have all the time in the world right?

 

[Patdart]

By no means do I attempt to eat a lot less protein, for me it's just when I choose to eat it...meat is my real downfall. I've always eaten a lot and can't imagine life without it. I'd always choose a steak over a dessert and have been that way all my life. I've just found a lot is perhaps not good for me at night.

 

[Daytona]

Sorry I wasn't trying to overreact or read what wasn't there. I just sometimes worry that other readers, etc will misinterpret or not have the full context of a conversation that has develops over a couple threads.

Carry on!

 

[sam123]

Before this I have read number of book about healthy and diet food. Many times I have seen that in our daily food, the intake of protein is very much important. Diabetes people are also need to eat the high protein foods like bean. Proteins are always helpful for good health.

 

[smorgan]

By no means do I attempt to eat a lot less protein, for me it's just when I choose to eat it...meat is my real downfall. I've always eaten a lot and can't imagine life without it. I'd always choose a steak over a dessert and have been that way all my life. I've just found a lot is perhaps not good for me at night.

Beef is a great food for diabetics. But, if your steak is lean and you trim all the fat around the edges, not so much. Try switching to fattier cuts like NY steak or better yet, ribs. They will not disrupt your macro-nutrient balance the way a lean steak can. If you like lamb, even better.

Protein is essential but has no benefit and quite possibly harm - especially for diabetics - if eaten beyond what is actually needed for its primary purpose. The primary purpose if protein is for cell building and repair. If consumed beyond that, the liver is tasked with converting it to glucose. We surely don't need more glucose and sparing our liver this extra work (and some toxic by-products which result and must be excreted) is probably a good idea.

If you're getting 15% of your calories or thereabouts from protein you do not need any more and adding more will be a net negative. When you cut carbs and with the foods generally available, the real challenge is getting protein LOW enough, not high enough.

 

[sam123]

I think protein is very much helpful to our body. If you take the protein daily it is better for health. I don't think that stop eating protein foods are good for our health. But After reading this post I am also have the question in my mind that protein is good or bad. I will definitely concern my doctor to know facts about this.

 

[sallyb]

How much protein do you all tend to eat on average? I think I may eat too much, but have zero
idea of what the ideal amount is...

 

[timmy]

i have about 200gms a day. 160gms of carbs. I dont seem to be the norm around here, im still in the honeymoon phase and extremely active so cant imagine life without carbs. To me insulin isnt evil, so having this as your meds isnt a negative thing. FWIW i inject anywhere from 3-7 units of novorapid a day depending on training load with 10mls of lantus at night.

 

[sallyb]

Thanks Timmy

Is 200 grams a recommended guideline do you know? I don't take insulin, so have a keep a sharp eye
on carbs - tend to never go above 20 carbs a day (of which are all from vegetables, little cheese and cream). I have managed to keep my numbers on average of 4.2 for the past few months and want to stay in these ranges as long as possible!

 

[smorgan]

Thanks Timmy

Is 200 grams a recommended guideline do you know? I don't take insulin, so have a keep a sharp eye
on carbs - tend to never go above 20 carbs a day (of which are all from vegetables, little cheese and cream). I have managed to keep my numbers on average of 4.2 for the past few months and want to stay in these ranges as long as possible!

He is a Type 1 and so obviously on insulin. You are a "pre" and on no medications. I don't think your experiences are very relevant to each other.

 

[sallyb]

He is a Type 1 and so obviously on insulin. You are a "pre" and on no medications. I don't think your experiences are very relevant to each other.

For me personally, it's important to hear how others cope, eat and manage, type 1 or 2 - its all very relevant. I am not sure on the term 'pre' anymore, not sure if there is any such a thing. If I eat carbs my blood sugars sky rocket to 11 plus and upwards.