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Discussion Starter #1
the metformin (leave it to medicine) way my old results were:
old metformin way (no supplements) high bood glucose 220 mg/dl to 370 mg/dl


James Snake Oil Diet:
James Snake Oil Diet (with many supplements and no medications) high bood glucose 140 mg/dl to 210mg/dl

my understanding of diabetes is that the the damage is exponential over BG 120 mg/dl so i think that my high BG reading are better

low readings for both are 100 to 140 mg/dl

ColaJim
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Metformin Linked to B12 Deficiency
Peripheral Neuropathy Patients Who Take Diabetes Drug May Have Vitamin B12 Deficiency
By Jennifer Warner
WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD
metformin_b12_deficiency.jpg

June 8, 2009 -- The popular diabetes drug metformin may contribute to vitamin B12 deficiency, according to a new study.

Researchers found that 40% of type 2 diabetes patients using metformin had vitamin B12 deficiency or were in the low-normal range for the essential vitamin. And 77% of metformin users with vitamin B12 deficiency also had peripheral neuropathy, a common form of nerve damage associated with type 2 diabetes.

Peripheral neuropathy is a type of nerve damage most often characterized by pain, tingling, and numbness in the hands and feet.

Because peripheral neuropathy is such a major complication of diabetes, researchers say the results suggest that people using metformin be screened for vitamin B12 deficiency or supplemented with vitamin B12. Also, anyone already diagnosed with peripheral neuropathy who uses metformin should be screened for vitamin B12 deficiency.

Vitamin B12 is primarily found in meat and dairy products. In the body, it plays a critical role in making red blood cells and keeping the nervous system functioning properly. Symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency include anemia (low red blood cell count), depression, or dementia; but often there are no symptoms if the vitamin levels are just a little low. B12 deficiency can lead to nerve symptoms similar to that of diabetic peripheral neuropathy, although the researchers note that they cannot be certain that B12 deficiency contributed to the peripheral neuropathy seen in their study.


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so i am taking B12 just i case i restart using metformin

REF: Metformin Linked to B12 Deficiency

ColaJim
 

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Please excuse me while I laugh, but the only source given for this article is the ADA . . . hardly a credible authority, in my opinion.

And why would you spend money on a vitamin supplement "just in case"? Do you even know if you're actually B12 deficient? Just sayin' . . .
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Shanny

Please excuse me while I laugh, but the only source given for this article is the ADA . . . hardly a credible authority, in my opinion.

And why would you spend money on a vitamin supplement "just in case"? Do you even know if you're actually B12 deficient? Just sayin' . . .
i often find it cheaper to just take the supplement instead of paying for an analysis,

are you covering you butt when you take that "statin" drug or is there no "credible authority" that says you must?

i am not fond of substituting one problem with another unless the substitute is easier to remedy



ColaJim
 

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For more than twenty years my total lipids ran 209/210 and my doc & I did nothing about it, since I was healthy despite being overweight. When my blood sugar began to creep up & the T2 diagnosis was confirmed, my doc & I decided that a low dose of a statin would be a practical preventative, and it is.

My doc is a very sensible man who has become my friend over the years of our professional relationship. He is my credible authority; I trust him to listen to me and consider my methods, even though he thinks I eat too low carb & test too much. He doesn't quibble with my results and he doesn't hassle me. He knows I'm not a fool, and that I don't suffer fools gladly.

Since my signature shows only my two recent lab results, humor me as I post my original numbers compared to my latest numbers:

Lipids panel:
5/20/2009 | 3/9/2010
Chol: 209 ---- 141
HDL: 38 ------ 51
LDL: 127 ----- 67
Trigl: 184 ---- 117

The low dose of statin and the low carb way of eating is not "covering my butt"; it is absolutely lowering my LDL/trigs and raising my HDL.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Shanny

For more than twenty years my total lipids ran 209/210 and my doc & I did nothing about it, since I was healthy despite being overweight. When my blood sugar began to creep up & the T2 diagnosis was confirmed, my doc & I decided that a low dose of a statin would be a practical preventative, and it is.

My doc is a very sensible man who has become my friend over the years of our professional relationship. He is my credible authority; I trust him to listen to me and consider my methods, even though he thinks I eat too low carb & test too much. He doesn't quibble with my results and he doesn't hassle me. He knows I'm not a fool, and that I don't suffer fools gladly.

Since my signature shows only my two recent lab results, humor me as I post my original numbers compared to my latest numbers:

Lipids panel:
5/20/2009 | 3/9/2010
Chol: 209 ---- 141
HDL: 38 ------ 51
LDL: 127 ----- 67
Trigl: 184 ---- 117

The low dose of statin and the low carb way of eating is not "covering my butt"; it is absolutely lowering my LDL/trigs and raising my HDL.
========

i was referring to limiting the damage caused by the "statin" itself

Statin side effects: Weigh the benefits and risks - MayoClinic.com

and a possible remedy ::

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2007/09/statin-drugs-and-coenzyme-q10.html
 

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I'm quite aware of what you were referring to, Jim. What I'm referring to is the decision made by me and my doctor. As I said before, I'm not a fool - I don't mindlessly do what I'm told. I recognize the tradeoffs with some of these drugs. Because my mother died of coronary artery disease, it makes sense to me to lower my lipids. I made it 65 years without manifesting any symptoms of heart disease, but what's the point in pushing the envelope when diabetes adds another risk factor?

You make the decisions to eat supplements instead of being tested . . . I consult with a professional I've trusted for many years, and decide that it's time I got my lipids reined in.

And incidentally, I've had no side effects or damage from my statin use. The dose I take is low and perhaps that's the key - don't get carried away with it.

As for your suggestion to consider more supplements: I'm already taking some, and again, I'm quite aware of others. I will decide what and when.

I hope as you continue with us on this forum, you begin to realize that we are not idiots. We are intelligent, educated & experienced diabetics who know about our own conditions and maintain pretty tight control. How about you telling us what your numbers have been like lately?
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
James Snake Oil Diet:

removed so as not to disturb the powers that be

3.3 Contributions must not:

3.3.1 contain any material which is or could be defamatory in any way;
 

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What a shame you removed it Jim, there was some good information there. I hope you aren't so busy being an outlaw that you don't recognize you may have accord here. You seem well-versed on supplements and we have no problem with that - many of us use various supplements & I'm about to start a new one that has worked well for Pam. We use supplements along with the medical treatments that we've found to be successful in controlling our disorder - we do not deliberately substitute supplements for medical treatment because of our political opinions of the medical community or the ADA.

Would it be possible to separate your teaching of supplements from your notion that the rest of us are puppets because we also rely on our doctors and use medical treatments to control some of our symptoms? Many of us have spent years developing a regimen that works for us - same as you have - we eat to our meters, and whatever sends our meters above 130 or 140 is off the menu, or at least sharply limited. Other products that help us process our meals without elevated BG are certainly welcome, assuming they don't include unmanageable side effects.

You could be a great asset to this forum, Jim, if you could get past the idea that the rest of us are dimwits in thrall to the medical establishment and other "credible authorities", and who don't know the first thing about how to manage our diabetes. You err greatly on both of those counts, and your condescension is palpable.
 

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Discussion Starter #10

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well it seems that about everything i am saying has already been written up:

What Can Be Taken to Naturally Lower High Blood Sugar? | eHow.com
Sure...I agree with a lot of these ideas. The fact remains though, sometimes it just isnt enough. Each of us is different and we all have to find what works for us. I take several supplements, as well as metformin and insulin. This is what I need. Supplements can help though..and I think anything that helps me is a good thing :)
 

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Hi, Jim ... B12 deficiency is pretty common. I have a condition that predisposes me to pernicious anemia (ie, autoimmune B12 deficiency). I currently take an inexpensive B12 sublingual tab, just in case!

However I do not see what your diet is ... is there any food involved? :tongue1:

Interesting the list did not include VINEGAR, one of my favorite peak-reducing substances ... cheap, and readily available!

I too use metformin and insulin, AND statins, and by no means consider it a defeat to do so.

HOWEVER, that article recommends niacin. Niacin landed me an A1c 0.6 higher than without it! While it might help your lipids, it sure can wreak havoc on your blood sugars!
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
foxl

Hi, Jim ... B12 deficiency is pretty common. I have a condition that predisposes me to pernicious anemia (ie, autoimmune B12 deficiency). I currently take an inexpensive B12 sublingual tab, just in case!

However I do not see what your diet is ... is there any food involved? :tongue1:

Interesting the list did not include VINEGAR, one of my favorite peak-reducing substances ... cheap, and readily available!

I too use metformin and insulin, AND statins, and by no means consider it a defeat to do so.

HOWEVER, that article recommends niacin. Niacin landed me an A1c 0.6 higher than without it! While it might help your lipids, it sure can wreak havoc on your blood sugars!
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foxl
Bearing in mind that i am fighting off nicotine addiction, neuropathy, diabetes, arthritis, bipolar/depression, and poverty as a disabled old man, my decisions don't always make sense even to me the next day . And as far as the vinegar is concerned, i like the other guy's idea of a beer with meals better but unfortunately i was also an alcoholic in my younger days. :(
I am trying about 20 different supplements right now ( yeah, about $400 in supplies to test) and today i used one and two glyburide tabs 12 hours apart to to see their effects. They seem more predictable to me than metformin and fewer side effects unless i miscalculate and go hypoglycemic

As yet i have not come up with a stable diet for this old man that can't shop in weather over 80 degrees F and gets snowed in for two weeks at a time in the winter. I mostly eat out of bags and cans. The stuff i am eating now is mostly bought over the internet delivered via UPS. Yup, time to go to Kroger. :) I'll try to remember apple vinegar, my white vinegar sucked big time. Yup, got some apple vinegar to try and 20 cans of green veggies (spinach and peas) and two fresh roasted chickens, yum, yum! :)

As you might have guessed i get a bit grandiose with things and spent $2000 trying to quit cigarettes
Guess who doesn't have a 42 inch HDTV :)
 

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--------

f
I am trying about 20 different supplements right now ( yeah, about $400 in supplies to test) and today i used one and two glyburide tabs 12 hours apart to to see their effects. They seem more predictable to me than metformin and fewer side effects unless i miscalculate and go hypoglycemic
Its difficult to compare glyburide and metformin since they both work in entirely different ways. Metformin has to build up in your system over a matter of a few weeks to get to its peak therapeutic level. It lowers your blood sugar by decreasing your insulin resistance. Glyburide however has a more immediate effect because it prods your pancreas into producing more insulin.

They both have their drawbacks. Metformin causes some GI upset, but that usually goes away once your body gets used to the drug. Glyburide can cause hypoglycemia since it works on the pancreas directly. There is some new movement that if a diabetic needs a pancreas stimulating drug, they may be better off going straight to insulin instead. Sometimes with pancreas stimulating drugs you can actually burn out your beta cells to the point that they no longer function (which is what happened to me).

The action is entirely different so its sort of like comparing apples to oranges.
 
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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
onaughmae

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foxl
Bearing in mind that i am fighting off nicotine addiction, neuropathy, diabetes, arthritis, bipolar/depression, and poverty as a disabled old man, my decisions don't always make sense even to me the next day . And as far as the vinegar is concerned, i like the other guy's idea of a beer with meals better but unfortunately i was also an alcoholic in my younger days. :(
I am trying about 20 different supplements right now ( yeah, about $400 in supplies to test) and today i used one and two glyburide tabs 12 hours apart to to see their effects. They seem more predictable to me than metformin and fewer side effects unless i miscalculate and go hypoglycemic

As yet i have not come up with a stable diet for this old man that can't shop in weather over 80 degrees F and gets snowed in for two weeks at a time in the winter. I mostly eat out of bags and cans. The stuff i am eating now is mostly bought over the internet delivered via UPS. Yup, time to go to Kroger. :) I'll try to remember apple vinegar, my white vinegar sucked big time. Yup, got some apple vinegar to try and 20 cans of green veggies (spinach and peas) and two fresh roasted chickens, yum, yum! :)

As you might have guessed i get a bit grandiose with things and spent $2000 trying to quit cigarettes
Guess who doesn't have a 42 inch HDTV :)
Its difficult to compare glyburide and metformin since they both work in entirely different ways. Metformin has to build up in your system over a matter of a few weeks to get to its peak therapeutic level. It lowers your blood sugar by decreasing your insulin resistance. Glyburide however has a more immediate effect because it prods your pancreas into producing more insulin.

They both have their drawbacks. Metformin causes some GI upset, but that usually goes away once your body gets used to the drug. Glyburide can cause hypoglycemia since it works on the pancreas directly. There is some new movement that if a diabetic needs a pancreas stimulating drug, they may be better off going straight to insulin instead. Sometimes with pancreas stimulating drugs you can actually burn out your beta cells to the point that they no longer function (which is what happened to me).

The action is entirely different so its sort of like comparing apples to oranges.
onaughmae

Very good point! REF: There is some new movement that if a diabetic needs a pancreas stimulating drug, they may be better off going straight to insulin instead. Sometimes with pancreas stimulating drugs you can actually burn out your beta cells to the point that they no longer function (which is what happened to me).

But i like the numbers: 18:26 BG 99 mg/dl 3 hours after glyburide :)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
my objective right now is to validate my original "James Snake Oil Diet" claim:

James Snake Oil Diet:
James Snake Oil Diet (with many supplements and no medications) high bood glucose 140 mg/dl to 210mg/dl

i have screwed around with medications while testing so i have to do new trials to re-validate it.

I need to stay under 210mg/dl without medication to show myself that controlled supplements are a very important part of my diet. It would seem that it would be easy to beat "old metformin way (no supplements) high bood glucose 220 mg/dl to 370 mg/dl" but does my new plan really work or am i just "farting into the wind"?

I know that to you oldies to "achieve 210 mg/dl" may just sound silly but to me dropping from 370 to 210 sounds very good and my experiments are less than 2 weeks old. the chemicals made need even up to 4 weeks to "sink in". I understand that magnesium takes 2 to 12 months to be properly absorbed.
 

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onaughmae

Very good point! REF: There is some new movement that if a diabetic needs a pancreas stimulating drug, they may be better off going straight to insulin instead. Sometimes with pancreas stimulating drugs you can actually burn out your beta cells to the point that they no longer function (which is what happened to me).

But i like the numbers: 18:26 BG 99 mg/dl 3 hours after glyburide :)
Oh yes...thats very good indeed. Glyburide worked very well for me for a long time. I think when it got to the point that I was maxxed out on the dose and still struggling to maintain control I should have gone to insulin at that point. Instead I kept beating my poor pancreas over the head with drugs until it finally told me to take a hike that it was done! I cant help but wonder if I could have preserved some pancreatic function by switching to insulin earlier. My beta cells would have died off eventually anyway most likely, but maybe not so soon or not to the extent that it happened. I barely have any function left at all and will be insulin dependent for the rest of my life. It isnt the end of the world....but it makes me wonder...what if.. :)
 

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my objective right now is to validate my original "James Snake Oil Diet" claim:

James Snake Oil Diet:
James Snake Oil Diet (with many supplements and no medications) high bood glucose 140 mg/dl to 210mg/dl

i have screwed around with medications while testing so i have to do new trials to re-validate it.

I need to stay under 210mg/dl without medication to show myself that controlled supplements are a very important part of my diet. It would seem that it would be easy to beat "old metformin way (no supplements) high bood glucose 220 mg/dl to 370 mg/dl" but does my new plan really work or am i just "farting into the wind"?

I know that to you oldies to "achieve 210 mg/dl" may just sound silly but to me dropping from 370 to 210 sounds very good and my experiments are less than 2 weeks old. the chemicals made need even up to 4 weeks to "sink in". I understand that magnesium takes 2 to 12 months to be properly absorbed.
Milk thistle is also being put out there as a way to halp stabalize blood sugar. I started taking it for my elevated liver enzymes (which are now normal). I read a few studies about how it may be beneficial to T2 diabetics as well....so I figured it couldnt hurt :)
 
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