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Discussion Starter #1
I've been reading a lot of posts here saying that saturated fats are okay and are good for you and people eating like bacon every morning (maybe you're eating turkey bacon with little sodium, I don't know). Saturated fats are actually not good for you. For one of my lab experiments, we fed our mice with food that were high in saturated fats and low in carbs. We also made them run around a maze and do several exercises. We fed a different group diets high in unsaturated fats and our control group ate a "regular" diet. They all performed the same exercises etc. What we noticed was that the ones who ate unsaturated fats were healthier and had better stamina and organ function. When we dissected them, the ones with high saturated fat diet had lots of fat clogged up in their system, despite rigorous exercise. Why? Saturated fats have only saturated carbon bonds. So there are only single bonds between the carbon chains. It is harder for your body to break down so the fat just sits there. It is better to eat fish or poultry instead of pork or beef. You can eat those but you have to be very careful.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Wrong in so many ways, beginning with the fact that mice are not humans.
Of course mice are not humans but mice are model organisms because they are also mammals whose organs function very much the same as humans. So would you say they shouldn't test pharmaceutical drugs for cancer, kidney disease and etc on mice because it wouldn't produce accurate results? No. Mice are used as test subjects in most labs including diabetic labs. There's not very much research that support a high saturated fat diet. Let's even look at humans. We studied this group in Africa (I forgot the name, I'll try to find it for you) and they eat a diet high in saturated fat. They walk for about 5 miles a day so they are really fit. They still have high incidents of coronary heart disease.
 

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wish there was a unlike button. :hand:

its amazing to me what folks actually believe. but hey that is your right. mine is to find the info that is correct. this is not it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
wish there was a unlike button. :hand:

its amazing to me what folks actually believe. but hey that is your right. mine is to find the info that is correct. this is not it.
Well I'm not trying to force you to change your diet. I'm just saying based on research and my research (not just reading articles online). I work with this stuff in the lab a lot. I do research for the majority of my time. The leading cause of death in diabetes is due to heart disease. Not because people are eating too much carbs but because they are eating the wrong type of fats.
 

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Is it a hobby of yours to search forums and comment on peoples diets or lifestyles? Do you have diabetes by chance?

I bet you search craigslist too and tell the sellers they wont sell that garbage!
 
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Is it a hobby of yours to search forums and comment on peoples diets or lifestyles? Do you have diabetes by chance?

I bet you search craigslist too and tell the sellers they wont sell that garbage!
I honestly don't understand why you're offended. Obviously I have diabetes. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. Again, it is your choice whether or not you want to listen to me. I'm basing it on research I've done because I've studied this. For me, I will always choose polyunsaturated fats over saturated fats, but that is me. You don't need to get offended. If you're so sure that saturated fats are good for you, then continue to eat it, every day, every meal, it doesn't matter to me. Everyone here posts about research they found. Can't I post my own research even if it doesn't agree with what you think? Or am I not allowed to post if it does not coincide with norm views?
 

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Of course mice are not humans but mice are model organisms because they are also mammals whose organs function very much the same as humans. So would you say they shouldn't test pharmaceutical drugs for cancer, kidney disease and etc on mice because it wouldn't produce accurate results? No. Mice are used as test subjects in most labs including diabetic labs. There's not very much research that support a high saturated fat diet. Let's even look at humans. We studied this group in Africa (I forgot the name, I'll try to find it for you) and they eat a diet high in saturated fat. They walk for about 5 miles a day so they are really fit. They still have high incidents of coronary heart disease.
Mice are certainly useful animal models (as are yeast, drosophila and zebra fish) but rarely mimic human disease. While I am new to diabetes, my understanding is that there really are no great models for type 2. Were your studies done in a diabetic mouse? The physiology (not to mention the gastrointestinal tract) of mice is radically different to humans in so many aspects. While preclinical studies in mice are still very common to demonstrate proof of principle, it is well-understood in the pharmaceutical industry that success in mice does not always translate into success in humans (and vice versa). These days it is not uncommon for oncology drugs to go from cell lines directly to phase 1's for this reason, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to publish in the higher impact journals without having human data to support murine systems.
 

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I think the OP is sincere.

But I also think the OP has not tried eating this way, and measured the results. She needs to try that before commenting. Mice are indeed metabolically different from humans in many ways. The difference is, we assume humans were not designed to eat a largely grain diet, and our results seem to confirm this.
 

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Im not offended. I just dont know why you would post on a site where the majority uses a pretty specific diet and then try to shoot it down. It just doesnt make sense.

People here struggle with their disease and have found something. Now some might feel the need to change again and elevevate their bg trying.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Mice are certainly useful animal models (as are yeast, drosophila and zebra fish) but rarely mimic human disease. While I am new to diabetes, my understanding is that there really are no great models for type 2. Were your studies done in a diabetic mouse? The physiology (not to mention the gastrointestinal tract) of mice is radically different to humans in so many aspects. While preclinical studies in mice are still very common to demonstrate proof of principle, it is well-understood in the pharmaceutical industry that success in mice does not always translate into success in humans (and vice versa). These days it is not uncommon for oncology drugs to go from cell lines directly to phase 1's for this reason, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to publish in the higher impact journals without having human data to support murine systems.
Yes, we tested with diabetic mice and healthy mice. Most diabetic research use mice and the similarities outweigh the differences which is why they are continued to be used. It's true that success in mice don't always translate to humans, but I'm not talking about treatment here, I'm talking about diet. Yes, it's true concerning oncology studies and cell lines but in the majority of cases, they have to test on mice before they can go to human tissue. I worked in an oncology lab last summer in Sweden, and the majority of the time, we were testing on mice.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Im not offended. I just dont know why you would post on a site where the majority uses a pretty specific diet and then try to shoot it down. It just doesnt make sense.

People here struggle with their disease and have found something. Now some might feel the need to change again and elevevate their bg trying.
There isn't a specific diet. I'm not trying to shoot anything down. I didn't say eat a high carb diet. I didn't say eat things with more glucose. I'm not disputing the fact that you have to eat lots of protein. I'm saying if you can, choose fish over pork. If you can, choose poultry over beef. These are still proteins and contain no carbs. Fish is rich in omega 3 acids which is really good for your brain and is a preventative measure you can take against Alzheimer. It is also really good for your digestive system. Low sodium is also extremely important for good function of your kidneys. No way am I saying to eat carbs, I'm saying if you had a choice, choose healthier protein. Additionally, buying chicken is cheaper than buying beef so.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I think the OP is sincere.

But I also think the OP has not tried eating this way, and measured the results. She needs to try that before commenting. Mice are indeed metabolically different from humans in many ways. The difference is, we assume humans were not designed to eat a largely grain diet, and our results seem to confirm this.
Thanks. Let's just look at the organic chemistry of saturated fats since everyone is so against mice models. Saturated fats only contain single single bonds. They are harder for the body to break down than double bonds. If we look at the biochemistry of it, the tails in the triglyceride fats are straight, there are no kinks and this makes it easy for them to clump together which is why they can clump to blood vessels. Unsaturated fats have kinks in their tails making it harder for them to clump. In addition, because of the kinks, they can disrupt the clumping of saturated fats
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Im not offended. I just dont know why you would post on a site where the majority uses a pretty specific diet and then try to shoot it down. It just doesnt make sense.

People here struggle with their disease and have found something. Now some might feel the need to change again and elevevate their bg trying.
And just because the majority do something, doesn't make it right. So if the majority chooses a diet high in saturated fats and it works for them, then that's WONDERFUL. If it helps keep their blood glucose levels down, that's GREAT but in the process of trying to defeat one disease, you're increasing your chances of another. Why not just kill two birds with one stone? Enjoy your protein but in the process fight diabetes and coronary heart disease. Is that too much of a problem?
 

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Yes, we tested with diabetic mice and healthy mice. Most diabetic research use mice and the similarities outweigh the differences which is why they are continued to be used. It's true that success in mice don't always translate to humans, but I'm not talking about treatment here, I'm talking about diet. Yes, it's true concerning oncology studies and cell lines but in the majority of cases, they have to test on mice before they can go to human tissue. I worked in an oncology lab last summer in Sweden, and the majority of the time, we were testing on mice.
As I mentioned above, the utility of animal models is not in question, but a good researcher will understand the limitations of their models and consequently temper their conclusions. As mentioned above, mice are engineered for a plant based diet, I'm not sure you would get the same results with canine models (if they exist for T2). I think the issue with your perspective is not in the introduction of an idea, but rather the inflammatory nature of "yelling fire in the theater". I am interested in learning more on this, could you please point me to the publications that demonstrate the negative effects of LCHF in rodents type 2 models? I would like to see the specific model and the experimental design.
 

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Rodent digestive systems -- metabolism and their entire structure from teeth to sphincters -- evolved to thrive on a diet consisting mostly of fibrous vegetable matter.

Human systems, on the other hand, are geared to an omnivorous diet. The addition of starchy grains to our diet is a recent development, historically speaking -- and the vast proportion of starchy foods in most diets is even more recent. This is why human diet plans cannot rely on rodent-based diet research.

Scientific research is plentiful. For starters, I recommend Dr. Bernstein's articles on fat. A Forum search will also reveal many useful links.

In the end, we must all make our own dietary choices. For diabetics, this is a must, for high sugars will result in complications if left uncontrolled. And for most of us, control means a diet low in carbs, with fats replacing the starches we'd normally eat. And each one of us must find the proportions that work best for our own bodies.
 
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No but it makes it our right to be somewhere with support. There is enough negative in our lives with diabetes. Why dont we all just go on feeding tubes so we dont have to watch everything we eat?

The understansing is there. I know chicken is healthier and the same with fish but I have had enough about being dictated too about diet. Everyone knows processed foods are bad.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Rodent digestive systems -- metabolism and their entire structure from teeth to sphincters -- evolved to thrive on a diet consisting mostly of fibrous vegetable matter.

Human systems, on the other hand, are geared to an omnivorous diet. The addition of starchy grains to our diet is a recent development, historically speaking -- and the vast proportion of starchy foods in most diets is even more recent. This is why human diet plans cannot rely on rodent-based diet research.

Scientific research is plentiful. For starters, I recommend Dr. Bernstein's articles on fat. A Forum search will also reveal many useful links.

In the end, we must all make our own dietary choices. For diabetics, this is a must, for high sugars will result in complications if left uncontrolled. And for most of us, control means a diet low in carbs, with fats replacing the starches we'd normally eat. And each one of us must find the proportions that work best for our own bodies.
Thanks for the link. I will check it out. You people seem to be misunderstanding me. When did I say eat carbs? No. I said eat protein that contains polyunsaturated fats such as fish. Fish is high in fat except the type of fat is different. It is high in omega 3 fatty acids. That is actually good for your body and your brain. I said choose poultry. It still contains saturated fats, but to a much lesser extent. But like I said, it's your choice. I don't want to be trying to fight off diabetes and in the process give myself coronary heart disease which is why I'm sticking to a low carb high protein diet with lots of fat coming from polyunsaturated fats.
 

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I think lots of people believe in different ways of eating. The only thing here is they have been pushing poly unsaturated fats in the US for the past 30 years. At the same time the Diabetes population and the Obese population have exploded. Is there a connection I am not sure. Many doctors and dieticians push a higher carb, low fat diet and those diabetics tend to live with higher HbA1c's, and more complications down the line. All I know is eating saturated fats keeps my bgs in a near normal range. I feel the complications from higher bgs are a much bigger risk. Also most of us who eat fat do burn it off, as evidenced by being in Ketosis most of the time. My dad did the diet his doctor recomended all his life. He was tall and thin and exercised. He never touched saturated fat and at all the new margerines and a higher carb diet. He had a heart attack and now is diabetic and blind.
 

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