[foodahollic]

I guess I should say my ADA Diabetes Educator says "Low Carb" and finishes with "Low Fat." To which I mutter to myself, fats are all right, if they are good oils.

There is a multi faceted discussion of what is good Oil. Several years ago the Nutrition community was warning about Trans Fats. Which then were in chips and some other things.

There is still another class of what is not good oils, and what are good oils. Good Oils. Olive Oil. Canola Oil. The more relevant worry is about keeping an oil around so long it develops free-radicals.

I wanted to get into another discussion. I recently went to see my eye doctor, who has a big interest in Diabetes. He tells me that more recently it has been discussed that it is better for the patient is an A1C of between six and seven. and even an A1C above seven is going to be considered acceptable if it is stable.

The worst damage from Diabetes is from low blood sugars. (This is a newer suggestion being talked about at ADA conference.) When I was speaking with Diabetes Educator on one occasion, she said that a Blood Glucose of 250 is safer than injecting Insulin more than once every three hours. (Excepting for taking fast Insulin and slow insulin at the same time. In my case: Novolog. Tuojeo.

Avoid low Blood Glucose. As I had emphasized to me by my Endocrinologist. My Eye Doctor (who goes the ADA conference every year). and the ADA Nutrition Educator. My last A1C was at first read 5.6 then it became changed to 5.8. From a drop of blood. i guess they recalibrated the meter that does the A1C.

Taking Mounjaro gave me a huge problem with low Blood Glucose readings (Dexcom G6) which was verified sometimes by poking my finger. I kept fruit juice in fridge. i would eat a can of peaches of stop the slide. Then it would go too high. Frustrating when I am supposed to be losing weight. Now I have stopped the Novolog injections, and worry about going high.

The Eye doc said that perhaps the emphasize on Low Carb was always incorrect. Sure it helped people lose weight. There was a better way.

The suggestion is that Diabetes is a disease is for many of us, could be partially corrected by eating a diet more composed of brightly colored vegetables. Which would cause our bodies to begin to either create more insulin on our own, or to process sugar better. Since I can do a low Keto on this. Well, I want to stay away from getting too radical. No really low Blood Glucose. Guard rails so to speak in keeping myself more middle of the road.

Have I done this. Uh, no. Gonna be hard. A vegetarian based diet, well accomplished, if it is fresh vegetables, is nearly as expensive as steak. There are bags of frozen vegetables that might work cheaper. My freezer has an auto defrost that ruins food in a few days. Seems like everything in the universe is against my best efforts.

Eye doc also said to avoid fresh tomatoes. Tomatoes were fantastic if cooked in some way. Sauces or such. Raw tomatoes would cause Leaky Gut problems. I dunno. That was the advice???

My other issue with some of this, as some on forum may also agree. I take Cholesterol Lowering Drugs, in my case I failed out of Statins, so I use RePatha. I have a great Triglyceride profile. One needs Cholesterol or I have failing memory, which is frustrating.

So what is the harm in trying this kind of diet?? I want to hear opinions.

 

[itissteve]

Sounds like a lot of advice being sent your way at the same time.

For many years the conventional (Western) medical wisdom has been that diabetics are better running high than low. The thinking is that if you do have a hypoglycemic event, higher BG will give you more time to respond (further to fall, if you will) before serious hypoglycemic issues occur. To some extent it's a valid recommendation.

However recent studies have indicated (and confirmed) another of your doctor's points: that very-tightly-controlled blood glucose, even if the A1c is higher than "normal", is kinder to the body than an A1c that results from seesaws where a diabetic goes really high and, sometime later, crashes. Kind of the difference between having each foot in a pan of 80-degree water and having one foot in a 40-degree pan and the other in a 120-degree pan. Both water temps average out to 80; one if far easier (and less injurious) for our bodies to deal with.

Whenever diabetics have to match glucose levels with insulin, it's possible to mismatch. A set amount of insulin taken in has to be matched by carb intake (with accounting for exertion levels, infections/injuries, etc.). Too little insulin and you have too much BG damaging organs and causing neuropathy and blood vessel issues. Too much insulin and you get a hypo. Too much of an overreaction to a hypo (too many carbs ingested as a response) raises BG levels too high and then either more damage occurs or more insulin is needed to counteract the overage. This seesaw causes more damage than a higher BG level that does not require that attempt at regulation. So the doctor is correct on that though we can differ on what the "normal" level should look like.

Human activity requires a certain caloric intake or we will lack energy and can miss out on necessary nutrients. Low carb and low fat does not work for most people because most cannot eat enough of anything to satisfy their caloric needs. But neither fat nor protein affect BG levels. So if someone is cutting down on carbs, the calories have to come from somewhere. They can come from foods (fats and proteins) that contain minimal amounts of (or no) carbs. Eating enough vegetables (brightly-colored or otherwise) to meet the needs of even a sedentary adult will result in greater carb intake and a need to address that through medication or insulin. So there might be something to the recommendation to eat primarily vegetables in a way that keeps your BG stable. "Brightly-colored" vegetables, though, include a fair number like squashes, beets, carrots, etc., that are fairly high in carbs. Inquiring minds would want to know just what a few days worth of those meals would look like and how sustainable that will be as an eating plan.

Fats and oils are another area of great discussion. Now that trans fats have been greatly reduced in most diets, attention has turned to inflammation of body organs caused by Omega-6 compounds. Saturated fats don't seem to be dangerous quite as much as processed seed oils (canola, corn, soybean, etc.). Many eating plans, like paleo and Whole30 and keto, recommend even saturated fats like animal fat, unprocessed coconut oil, etc., to shortening and canola oil because the cause less inflammation of blood vessels, body joints, etc. I can't say from personal experience that I could feel the difference between food sauteed in, say, coconut oil compared to some Wesson oil. But multiple studies indicate that my body can.

To summarize the novella I've written here, good science supports much of what your medical team is telling you. However, that can be tempered by just how feasible it is to make it happen. You already mentioned the expense of fresh vegetables, I've mentioned the difficulty of keeping BG levels in check, and there's the practicality of working this routine into your life.

So with that information, what do you think now?

 

[foodahollic]

His point on brightly colored vegetables was. Diabetes is actually a disease of malnutrition, or should I more accurately say. Malnutrition keeps our bodies from actually giving us energy. Much of what my diet would be, if not constrained by Diabetes is truly the diet of a junior high school student. Cheeseburgers. French Fries. Pizza. Fried Chicken. All right I live the USA south. If its not fried, its not southern cooking. But it is a really poor diet to properly give our body nutrition. Not just carbs for insulin to transport into cells, and burn.

Itissteve is correct. avoiding large amounts of carrots, corn, as well as bread would be in line. Beets, yes, sugary, but beets is one of vegetables that has large amounts of Nitrogen compounds that are used in weight lifter supplements. but still, like itissteve said, avoid too much sugar.

One of the other things my current Nutritionist said, "Avoid supplements. Eat real foods." She was big to make a distinction between green beans, low carb, and I should not eat Ranch Style Beans, which are Pinto Beans, which are more carby. So I think that shows her enthusiasm for Low Carb approach. As others think ADA Nutritionists say to avoid Low Carb, when i suspect they give us leeway to discover on our own.

But the suggestion to focus on vegetables rather than low carb came from eye doc. Just nutritionist would not disagree, if the total carbs was not too high.

Those Diabetics who look for the first time at low carb, are going to go "Blech," awful way to suffer through the life. Later we discover, find what is a return to what they ate before finding they are a diabetic, will also make them feel badly.

My point is, Think of Diabetes is a disease of malnutrition. Changing the nature of the disease, it is not just about some vegetables can be configured into a low carb diet. Rather, our bodies will return to functioning better with better nutrition. Low Carb can short change our bodies of the nutrients it needs to function, give us lower blood Sugars, lose weight. But not return our body to a higher burn rate of carbs, calories, better health. At least that is what I was told.

I think much of what the fellow said is correct. And perhaps this, brightly colored vegetable approach will not work for some or many. I had hoped some might try, and report back.

it was just what I was told.

 

[mbuster]

Nothing has worked better than low carb for me. I do eat some things that have more carbs than I should though. Brightly colored veggieis is one. I try to use the "weigh the risks vs benefits philosophy" like I do with medicines. Phytonutrients and antioxidents are not essentials but are very valuable for our immune system. I do try to limit the portion sizes if I expect a big impact on my BG, a little bit is way better than none.

As far as beans, I try to avoid those I don't cook myself. Anasazi beans, kin to pinto, can be prepared in a way to retrograde the starch in them, make it more resistant to digestion, and reduce the impact on BG.

 

[itissteve]

My point is, Think of Diabetes is a disease of malnutrition. Changing the nature of the disease, it is not just about some vegetables can be configured into a low carb diet. Rather, our bodies will return to functioning better with better nutrition. Low Carb can short change our bodies of the nutrients it needs to function, give us lower blood Sugars, lose weight. But not return our body to a higher burn rate of carbs, calories, better health. At least that is what I was told.

I wrestle with the definition of diabetes (Type 2; Type 1 is a whole different animal here) as a disease of malnutrition. Absolutely, our bodies function better with better nutrition. I totally agree that a standard meal of a burger with fries would be more nutritious with a green salad (or at least some cut-up veggies) on the side or (better) in place of the fries.

But I'm not totally convinced I'm selling my body short by avoiding carby vegetables in my keto eating plan. I do eat lots of greens and cruciferous vegetables among others and even a couple of baby carrots here and there. Am I missing out on corn, winter squash, and carrots? Not sure I can say.

I've long treated my T2 like an allergy to carbohydrates, the same way some people are lactose-intolerant or have allergies to shellfish. Someone who is lactose-intolerant wouldn't be advised to load up on milk even though milk is good for bones and a good source of Vitamin D (in the standard American diet) (yes, there are chemical interventions like Lactaid, but....). Shellfish has all kinds of demonstrated benefits in many diets, too, but if your body reacts to eating it, then it definitely will not work better.

So am I attending to malnutrition if I add brightly-colored but carby vegetables to my eating plan? I'm not sure that was my best move before I was diagnosed and I'm not sure I want to experiment now that I'm managing my T2 with keto.

Just another perspective, though. I firmly believe that humans barely have a handle on how our bodies really work and there is much more we should learn.

 

[Frankp877]

I can only speak of my own experience regarding diet and T2 diabetes. I was initially told I had diabetes when my A1C was at 6.9. No other test was done to see if I was insulin resistant or not, just that I had diabetes. Was sent to a diabetes nutritionist who advised I limit my carbs to no more than 50 grams per meal as well as a snack twice per day to maintain proper BG levels. Tried this for about two weeks and gained weight ( which was not needed ) and my BG was not being controlled very well.
Did my own research and decided that Keto may help. I cut out all starches, potatoes, bread and pasta as well as sweets. Dinner is normally at 5 pm and I have no snacks after that. I eat breakfast late in the morning, 10 or 11 am. This is somewhat an intermittent fast each day.
I eat eggs every morning with either sausage or bacon. Lunch is around 2 pm and will be either an apple with some peanut butter or an avocado. Dinner is always a meat of some kind with veggies or a salad. I do have an occasional hamburger or hotdog on a bun and have been using the KETO type buns that are high in fiber. Fiber can be beneficial when trying to stay low carb. Instead of 50 grams of carbs per meal I limit my self to 30 per day.
This started two years ago, and I have lost 50 pounds and my A1C has been steady at 5.0 for a little over a year. I do cheat at times and have noticed my BG returns to what is normal for me much faster than before. I do not take any medications to control this and only rely on diet.
Sorry to be long winded but my point is you have to find what works for you.