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Hi again tonight,

Note: Vitamin B takers please read, Metformin folks too? NO EXPERT, just turning up some interesting information... as I settle in with my new condition.

I have changed abruptly from a HC/LF to a HF/LC diet. 20 years HC, not even 20 days HF. I'm comfortable that it was the right thing to do, but I'm absolutely uncomfortable that I have any real idea what all is going on in my system yet. Lipids? Ketones?

Tonight, however, regarding Diabetes, I've had my head turned around a couple of times. There was the almost comical (if it wasn't so bloody serious!) totally obvious overblown claims for one particular supplement. But generally there seems to be a lot of underhanded, and misleading information hanging over Diabetes like some sort of weird flashing pink cloud :) , or something. What's with the ADA? There are a lot of folks trying to make a profit on this condition.

BTW - There are whole books out there on the nature of studies, and the reasons for distortions. I happened to have read one this summer. One particular chapter was titled "The Opium Fields of our Minds" - and it helped explain a lot about acupuncture, "homeopathic medicines" and more! (The Book title: "Snake Oil Science" by Barker Bausell - a very good read imo, and a serious eye opener.)

So here they are - four reasons poking me in the eye tonight as I am struggling to put together the supplements I want to add to my current modest list of Garlic and Fish Oil....

CONFUSION1: Because some of the Drugs like Metformin are almost more like what I have come to think of as supplements - its been used a relatively long time, on so many folks, that while it is not without known side-effects they seem to be relatively harmless and understood. There are even studies that it does such things as reduce cancer risk. I'm not kidding. see * below...

CONFUSION2: Because costs are being totally turned on their head by insurance (gov't regs at the bottom of it?) - expensive drugs become almost free. Supplements can quickly mount up, tonight I was looking a bottle of 60 capsules for $28. Recommended dosage was 6 per day! At such a price a person would be spending about $1,000 per year for something that there is not a single scientifically authoritive study to indicate it is effective. A diet can be upgraded a notch or two with such money - More Strawberries in dead of winter, those expensive Korean roots I can't pronounce - real palpable changes.

CONFUSION3: Because some supplements I am learning are not only not good but harmful! Yup. PLEASE read this:

B Vitamin Supplementation Increases Stroke and Kidney Damage

A study published in JAMA in April 2010 asked whether giving supplemental B vitamins to people with diabetes would improve their kidneys because they were known to have low levels of homocysteine. What the study found was very disturbing: people with diabetes who were given a single daily tablet of B vitamins containing folic acid (2.5 mg/d), vitamin B6 (25 mg/d), and vitamin B12 (1 mg/d) ended up with significantly worse kidney function as measured by GFR and also in a higher incidence of stroke. This suggests B Vitamin supplementation is harmful to people with kidney problems.

Effect of B-Vitamin Therapy on Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy. A Randomized Controlled Trial. Andrew A. House et al. JAMA Vol. 303 No. 16, April 28, 2010.

(I went back to Jenny Ruhl's site, which I think is TOP notch, because I thought I remember seeing this, and I did see a member here listing this has one of his supplements.)

CONFUSION4: Because a substance like Coconut Oil is both a food and a supplement. (Not to mention you can bathe in it :) ) It also seems to have some "drug like" properties. (This is also true for oatmeal btw). Ketones are Lipids were not covered in my HS Biology 50+ years ago - I don't think we had them back then :)

Again, I'm really 'pro' quality supplements, and generally distrustful, and until now strongly 'anti' drugs. And this seems consistent with the general consensus/mood here.

Somehow, however, with Diabetes (2), strangely enough:

1. supplements seem to be "over reaching" and expensive

2. while the most commonly prescribed type 2 drug (?) - Metformin is economical, and seems to have qualities that I'd normally expect to associate with supplements - like Lowering some long term cancer risks*




* I'm not making this up, see BMC Medicine | Full text | Understanding the benefit of metformin use in cancer treatment
just as one quick example of what is out there all over the web at some awfully serious sites. I think I originally picked up on this visiting the Mayo Clinic site.
 

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The ADA is driven by a simple need. It's called greed. If they stop supporting the high carbohydrate diet, a lot of their sponsors will be disappointed - and might even withdraw their sponsorship. :eek:

So what you will find if you hunt for them are a few well hidden footnotes suggesting that perhaps a higher fat diet might do no harm to some individuals but nothing stronger than that.

Over here, the French "Haute Autorité de Santé" slavishly follows the American model (so does the UK but their paperwork doesn't make it quite so obvious), so the advice to doctors is exactly the same. Fortunately my doctor is a pragmatist and leaves me to get on with it given my figures. :)
 

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So far, I don't need suplements OR medications to keep in good health and have no symptoms or signs of diabetes. I intend to keep it that way. Although I do continue to take a multi-vitamin and and small dose of Krill Oil, I have tried and then stopped many other supplements. I am thankful that my condition can be perfectly maintained simply by what I eat. I firmly believe that this is the case for a large majority of T2s - whether they would WANT to is of course an entirely different matter.

Supplements can become a crutch. We take them and do all kinds of BG checking and develop myths for ourselves one way or the other. Very unscientific. It would take much more sophisticated testing than that to really determine any benefit. To the extent such has been done, real meaningful benefit is rarely found and even it it appears so remains far from proven. It really takes a LOT of testing and careful work to isolate all other causes even where actual clinical trials have been done.

If you eat a lot of red meat - and it's hard for me to imagine how a T2 can truly manage their condition without it - it is highly unlikely you will be lacking in any nutrient or have any real need for supplementation.

Over and over again when I read about some critically important nutrient or other - especially important for diabetics - and I follow its trail it almost always leads back to the very things I eat most: read meat, full-fat dairy, etc.
 
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I guess FDA is behind a propaganda (as usual) that:

"Vitamins are Poisonous and Vaccines are Nutritious."

Same applies to anything where research is done on "LIFESTYLE" as they say. It's simply driven by greed. I cannot recall but there is some research with 5 million $ funding to study Asian cooking/meals and health advantages. I am sure it is not a research to reveal any easy to be assimilated truth but an attempt to try and find if some molecule can be extracted and then patented (and then PUSHED through the medical mafia to "mask" symptoms).

And all this is done through a series of Fake Researches (so called) where once a corpus of fake research is built over the years then every other research systematically starts quoting each other. There's a systematic campaign against vitamins and supplements because now "Biotech" companies are trying to call shots (in addition to Pharma Lords of course)

It's CORPORATE GREED driven so called Research ... i simply don;t listen to any of them and listen to how body and meter behaves on taking any of the supplements (or herbs).

For me i personally would still hold surgeons in high esteem but GP are merely functioning "brokers/clearing house" for PHARMA Lords. I am sorry but i am dead against these Agents/Brokers. One of my family friends has to undergo dialysis twice every week but now it was felt that even once a week would be good. The faces of "professionals" at diagnostic center "SULKED" as that meant less profits for them. This is what they are by an large. PARASITES.
 

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I used a large variety of supps and herbs, but I treated them as a drug, which they are. The shot gun approach with supps and herbs didn't work for me. I had to determine thru experimentation and observation of my body and BG levels to determine what I needed. I then researched what supps or herbs would be the most beneficial and least harmful I could take that would improve my body. Example of this would be insulin levels and insulin release. If you mix a small amount of sugar with art sweeteners your body can not tell the difference between the sugar and the art sweetener so it reacts accordingly. So consuming 4g of sugar mixed with 4 packets of art sweetener sets up a scenario with in my body where it senses I consumed probably 4-5 times that amount of sugar. My body then released GLP-1, a gut hormone that tells your pancreas to release insulin and your liver to turn its glucose valve off. Doing this for several mornings with 2g, 4g, 6g, of sugar provided me with information I needed to make the assumption that I had enough insulin to bring my numbers down but my signaling was poor. Looking up GLP-1 you find that Dandelion Root, Milk Thistle, Chlorogenic acid, coffee all help with GLP-1 release. So I started taking Dandelion Root. Now if I didn't have a signaling problem the Dandelion Root would have done nothing more than making me visit the room with one door, but it improved things rather well.
 
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MCS said:
I used a large variety of supps and herbs, but I treated them as a drug, which they are. The shot gun approach with supps and herbs didn't work for me. I had to determine thru experimentation and observation of my body and BG levels to determine what I needed. I then researched what supps or herbs would be the most beneficial and least harmful I could take that would improve my body. Example of this would be insulin levels and insulin release. If you mix a small amount of sugar with art sweeteners your body can not tell the difference between the sugar and the art sweetener so it reacts accordingly. So consuming 4g of sugar mixed with 4 packets of art sweetener sets up a scenario with in my body where it senses I consumed probably 4-5 times that amount of sugar. My body then released GLP-1, a gut hormone that tells your pancreas to release insulin and your liver to turn its glucose valve off. Doing this for several mornings with 2g, 4g, 6g, of sugar provided me with information I needed to make the assumption that I had enough insulin to bring my numbers down but my signaling was poor. Looking up GLP-1 you find that Dandelion Root, Milk Thistle, Chlorogenic acid, coffee all help with GLP-1 release. So I started taking Dandelion Root. Now if I didn't have a signaling problem the Dandelion Root would have done nothing more than making me visit the room with one door, but it improved things rather well.
Sorry, MCS, by "help with GLP-release" do you mean that dandelion root inhibits the release in some way? I'm so much in the dark with all of this and finding everyone's comments so interesting.
 

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Dandelion Root increases GLP-1 release. Victoza is a GLP-1 analog, This link may help. GLP-1 Analog Helps Control Blood Sugar Levels

Victoza is a GLP-1 analog. This means rather than trying to get your on body to release GLP-1 you inject it instead.


Sorry, MCS, by "help with GLP-release" do you mean that dandelion root inhibits the release in some way? I'm so much in the dark with all of this and finding everyone's comments so interesting.
 

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It's really hard to tell what the truth is when the vitamin people want to make money, the drug companies want to make money, and if a supplement is cheap, nobody wants to spend money evaluating it.

I would say get blood tests done to see if you have any vitamin deficiencies and address those. Then when your BG is under control (doesn't vary uncontrollably, even if it's still higher than ideal), add a supplement and see if it helps. I'm going to try some bitter melon soon. I tried milk thistle and it didn't change anything.
 

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Thats my point. The Milk Thistle did something but its like it did nothing because what you were asking of it probably had no bearing on what you needed. Its like taking an aspirin if you don't have a head ache and saying it does nothing for you. Getting your Vit levels checked is a very good idea if you feel your deficient in a particular vit. I had to Dx myself with the tools I have on hand which isn't much besides my meter and how I feel. If your BG baseline is high there is more involved than just not having enough insulin. IR is one factor, but consider a house trying to maintain a certain temp. If the air conditioning is on and the heat is on but the heat is turned way up, it will take far more air conditioning to bring the temp back down. Turn the heat down lets you use less air conditioning to maintain the desired temp. This is the theory behind the new D drug Junuvia, it suppresses glucagon from your alpha cells while increasing insulin from your beta cells. Your body uses glucose as a means to repair itself, any injury, inflammation, virus, infection, etc will increase your out flow of glucose from your liver. When you take steroids (stress hormone cortisol) your body reacts as though you are under attack (fight or flight), so what does it do, dumps a load a glucose to fuel your escape.

Milk Thistle will increase your Glutathione in your liver an antioxidant. Its good to take if you were Dxed with NAFLD. Its a weak GLP-1 Stimulator.

Bitter Melon works similar to MET. Timing is essential to get the most out of it. I found for me 15 minutes prior to eating seemed to give me the best response, the same holds true for Gymnemia Sylvestrae, and Vandal Sulfate.

I'm rambling.....................................................................

It's really hard to tell what the truth is when the vitamin people want to make money, the drug companies want to make money, and if a supplement is cheap, nobody wants to spend money evaluating it.

I would say get blood tests done to see if you have any vitamin deficiencies and address those. Then when your BG is under control (doesn't vary uncontrollably, even if it's still higher than ideal), add a supplement and see if it helps. I'm going to try some bitter melon soon. I tried milk thistle and it didn't change anything.
 
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